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Topic: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy (Read 6295 times) previous topic - next topic

  • Viking
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Capture a Vanduul Capitol Ship
Reply #25

If you help capture one of those Vanduul Carriers for me during the operation, it will probably not take that long  ;)


No, I won't be doing or helping with that in Operation Pitchfork, sorry.  It has nothing to do with you or anyone specific participant in OP.

I think it'll be a waste of time.

1. I doubt it'll be possible to capture a Vanduul capitol ship in the beta (maybe later).
2. Even if you manage to disable such a ship, I doubt the mechanics for boarding it will be in place, since CIG probably won't have had time to make the interiors finished yet.
3. I doubt such a ship would be flyable (for us) in the game, at least not until very long after the beta.

IMO it's not just a waste of time in OP, it's also going to draw resources diectly away from the main goal. We'll use up huge amount of resources to try and capture some few ships. Resources that would be better used in fighting off the Vanduuls.

So I've been against the capturing idea since day one. For the same reason I'm against ground operations in the main operation. That can wait until we've secured the main goal: liberating Orion.
  • Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 01:07:26 PM by Viking

Master Bacon Maker

Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #26
I have to agree with you, Viking, about trying to capture a Kingship.
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  • TEUTknight
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Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #27
As of now, I agree that using boarding actions and engaging on the ground will be counter productive. Since this will take more men and women away from flying more ships to engage.

However, once more and more people begin to join the operation, if we have enough numbers I think it could be something to do. If we are going to do it I would suggest disabling the capital ships to render them useless while we deal with other enemy forces (I am guessing a crippled vessel will still take precious space for the vanduul to bring reinforcements).

So my idea situation of boarding would be to disable their weapons and engines and just ignore them until we can divert forces for boarding actions (which will be a lot of forces to capture a Kingship).

This is of course, on top of the points Viking said, I doubt they will have this stuff enabled for Large capital ships.


For ground assault, I would be against the idea except when Orion is secure. This is only on the off chance some colonists managed to hide and survive for such a long time (very unlikely).

  • Shank
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Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #28
I believe most of the boarding actions were supposed to happen before Operation Pitchfork started. Though I do agree that during Operation Pitchfork would be hard to manage. Leaving damaged ships behind could be a problem if they can repair themselves and get back into the fight.

Re: Capture a Vanduul Capitol Ship
Reply #29

No, I won't be doing or helping with that in Operation Pitchfork, sorry.  It has nothing to do with you or anyone specific participant in OP.

I think it'll be a waste of time.


Well in that case, the moving of 57 ships will take significantly longer  ;) Nothing personal taken as I was only jesting, though I do know an attempt is in the works, the idea is I believe more to (if succesfull) defend Orion with the captured ships, not to use them for moving purposes.

1. I doubt it'll be possible to capture a Vanduul capitol ship in the beta (maybe later).
2. Even if you manage to disable such a ship, I doubt the mechanics for boarding it will be in place, since CIG probably won't have had time to make the interiors finished yet.
3. I doubt such a ship would be flyable (for us) in the game, at least not until very long after the beta.


All valid points, and that is why it is my intention to make sure that they are assessed well before the operation commences (along with similar questions like: How many torpedo's does it take to destroy one)  :)
Perhaps it is possible or perhaps it isn't possible, it is good to know either way.

IMO it's not just a waste of time in OP, it's also going to draw resources diectly away from the main goal. We'll use up huge amount of resources to try and capture some few ships. Resources that would be better used in fighting off the Vanduuls.

So I've been against the capturing idea since day one. For the same reason I'm against ground operations in the main operation. That can wait until we've secured the main goal: liberating Orion.


While I myself actually agree with you in that in my opinion the main priority is also to take back and subsequently securing Orion, the main goal as set out by Sailor is to make it epic and fun and if some achieve that by charging into a carrier filled with a thousand Vanduul, then good for the chaps that are willing to attempt it, I hope they can succeed  :) It is their own rescources, no one is going to force other players to join up with that specific mission (or any mission for that matter).

Besides the combat theater will probably be large enough for lots of different initiatives, I would not worry about this one  8)

  • Viking
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Re: Capture a Vanduul Capitol Ship
Reply #30

Well in that case, the moving of 57 ships will take significantly longer  ;)

LOL! I understand ....  ;D

While I myself actually agree with you in that in my opinion the main priority is also to take back and subsequently securing Orion, the main goal as set out by Sailor is to make it epic and fun and if some achieve that by charging into a carrier filled with a thousand Vanduul, then good for the chaps that are willing to attempt it, I hope they can succeed  :) It is their own rescources, no one is going to force other players to join up with that specific mission (or any mission for that matter).


Yes, you're right. I keep thinking in a military manner and forgetting that we're a bunch of unorganized civilians who do what they please and most don't take orders from nobody.  ;D

So I guess I'll have to accept many will have their own projects in OP.

Master Bacon Maker

Re: Capture a Vanduul Capitol Ship
Reply #31

LOL! I understand ....  ;D

Yes, you're right. I keep thinking in a military manner and forgetting that we're a bunch of unorganized civilians who do what they please and most don't take orders from nobody.  ;D

So I guess I'll have to accept many will have their own projects in OP.


Indeed, well apart from those that voluntary organize ;) What would you like to do in the operation?  :)

  • Viking
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Re: Capture a Vanduul Capitol Ship
Reply #32

What would you like to do in the operation?  :)


I will organize a fight group with my Idris-M frigate and upto 7 Hornets as support (3 in the hangar bay, 4 wingmen), plus one guy with a Constellation is also part of our group but detached from my resources. We may have more external ships join the group later too.

We will go through Tiber, probably. Either directly from Caliban or from Vega through Virgil first and then to Tiber. It depends on the battle plan and how many total ships we get in OP.

Master Bacon Maker

  • Ssh-die
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Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #33
Since I'm keen to do deep Recon missions with my Hornet Ghost the key questions for me are:

1. Just how stealthy can it be?
2. Can I fit a jump drive on it since it's a carrier based fighter?
3. How much range does it have?
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  • Viking
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Re: Capture a Vanduul Capitol Ship
Reply #34

What would you like to do in the operation?  :)

My alternate Plan B is simply to guard our border between Caliban and Tiber from vengeful Vanduuls. It'll be activated if I shouldn't approve of the official OP plans for some reason. :)


1. Just how stealthy can it be?

Don't know. Probably almost invisible on radar as long as you don't use the main engines.


2. Can I fit a jump drive on it since it's a carrier based fighter?

Yes.


3. How much range does it have?

Don' t know. However, since it's such a small ship with hydrogen based fuel, I'd guess you'd have to refuel after each jump.
  • Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 10:17:07 AM by Viking

Master Bacon Maker

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Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #35
Anyone getting answers from CR yet?





BTW, why doesn't my signature works?




  • Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 05:19:49 AM by Viking

Master Bacon Maker

  • Viking
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Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #36
So have anybody asked any of these question on 10ftC yet?

Master Bacon Maker

  • Viking
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Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #37
No? Then shouldn't we do that ASAP?

Master Bacon Maker

Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #38
1. Is still unknown as far as I know, though we know that it is intended that you can come to your friends aid, but how dynamically this will be...

2. Is also unknown I will ask that one in the 10fCM thread when it comes online <- this week is 10 ft Writers

3. and 4.  are sort of answered for the a. broad space occupation, by a statement that the AI will move into systems if they are controlled by players, this implicates that enemy AI might also prove to be dynamically operating in such a way.

b. Planetside is not a day 1 feature

c. to what extend vanduul ships can be captured is unknown
  • Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 06:09:53 AM by Marcus ImpaleMan

  • BlizKriegBob
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Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #39
If I might be so bold to throw in my two bits?

I agree with the notion that capturing a king ship would probably put an unnessecary strain on our ressources, yet it would be preferable to secure some kind of assest that could be used as an FOB for advancing into further systems (like an asteroid base for instance).
An Idris might be capable of supporting a small wing of fighters but for a prolonged operation (I doubt we can take Orion in a matter of a few hours) we will need a way to resupply and especially repair our ships in secured territory.
The plan with using MFAP's, will probably work for rearming and refueling ships but I doubt that you can do extended repairs, like replacing the shot off wing of a hornet, without a properly equipped hangar area or something similar.

  • Diamondback
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Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #40
Observation: Sometimes, the best way to handle a captured prize is to salvage it for usable resources and intel, then demolish it to avoid enemy recapture--this was a common fate for warships in the Age of Sail, for example USS Constitution helping herself to just enough of HMS Guerriere to repair herself and reprovision including supplies for the crew taken prisoner, then burned the prize rather than fight with towing it home or prize-crews.

Question: For our teammates who have access to Scythes, might it be possible for them to do a pre-advance recon if the Banu could somehow get stolen Bacon IFF codes, in addition to their HAVE DRILL/HAVE DONUT/Aggressor training role? Of course, it would be best to escape to Banu space to reset IFF's before rejoining the fleet.

Anyone got a Con Andromeda Physical Goodies package you're thinking about melting for a Digital? Send me a note--maybe we can make a deal.

  • mediaflare
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Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #41
I have a few questions I would love some insight into:

1. (assuming that there will be ground battles) Is it possible to use ships as dropships to bring ground forces into the fray?

2. (assuming that we're using some semblance of military strategy) after establishing a FOB during the event, will we establish smaller posts even closer to the fighting?

I ask these because my org is more than willing to do both 1 and 2 to help out. We have no concern for our health in regards of moving ammo/fuel as close to the actual combat as possible without getting targeted by the main forces of the enemy, as well as using our smaller ships(one Freelancer MIS right now, but plans on grabbing a Cutlass Red and Black soon) to load up with FPS players, run through the chaos, and drop them on the ground to cause damage.

Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #42
     I've been thinking that if we have scouts with comms in each Vanduul system, and ESPECIALLY Vanguard, We will know when the Vanduul are going for earth. If they want to go through the large jump points, they will have to start jumping toward Vanguard. If we're paying attention, we will see it coming. Also, there's no reason we can't keep some forces attacking them at home as well.
     The attackers could be small groups supported by intel who focus on hit and run tactics. We could have our main force waiting for them when they jump into Vanguard just like in the movie Wing Commander. And I have a feeling they won't all jump in simultaneously.

Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #43
     I recently saw a list of Vanduul ships and I think they have two really large achilles heels: the Lightfire Comms ship and the Driller harvester carrier. If we take out the comms ship, they theoretically can't send for reinforcements. If we take out the Driller, the harvesters won't have anywhere to deposit their resources, so that defeats the purpose of them fighting at all, because they have nothing to gain at that point. Obviously, killing a kingship means their fighters will have nothing to carry them, so there's that, but maybe we should avoid that fight if possible.
     The problem is that these are capital ships and they'll probably require coordinated alpha strikes with torpedoes so they have no time to react.
     Right now, we don't have enough solid data on the Vanduul, so trying to figure out how many torpedoes of what size isn't going to be very helpful, but I do have an idea about HOW to attack them.
     I'm thinking the first line should be fighters with many missiles (ie. gladius) who can fire decoys (decoy missiles are going to be a thing) and then break away, followed by a line of missile boats protected by the decoy screen, firing everything to both confuse enemy radar and to maybe cause damage, followed by enough torpedoes to kill the target assuming they all hit, and maybe a few extra just in case.
     Another idea is that we can maybe split their forces by surrounding them with several fleets of similar makeup and then retreating after a brief engagement. After they spread out to engage, we can flank the individual groups more easily.
     I'd really love to draw their capital ships into atmosphere and then crash them by knocking out their propulsion using suckerpunch type weapons if that's at all possible.
     What we really should NOT do is try to match our strength against theirs. If we exploit their weaknesses and dislocate them from their point of strength, we should be able to win. I feel like their fighters are built to take down capital ships, so we definitely need defensive ships as well as offensive. US Naval fleets have an inner core surrounded by two rings of ships, mostly in the direction of expected attack, with the outer ring consisting of long range weapons, the inner ring of high rate of fire weapons to take down incoming missiles and faster adversaries that get through, and picket ships that hide and wait for enemies to get close and then kill them with missiles.
     Maybe our capital ships should serve in a support role only, with the Polaris and eclipse doing most of the heavy lifting, at least until their forces are weakened considerably.
     One more suggestion: Sending the ground forces may be necessary to draw the enemy into atmosphere or even to get them to respond en masse, but we will likely suffer casualties if we do so. Their void bombers look like they will be smallish and have no  problem in atmosphere, so maybe we need aerodynamic fighters standing by just to counter them.

Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #44
Taking out their supply and communications might be a viable strategy. We don't have a good enough idea of how that will work quite yet. They "should" have to physically send a ship to request aid from outside the system, but this may not have to be an actual data runner.

I don't really expect them to back off if we destroy their harvesting ships. This might be the case if we were defending, but as we are launching an assault and they are a warrior culture I find it unlikely they will be programmed to be routed by just that. As well, Orion, the system we are thinking of invading seems to have Vanduul infrastructure on it so simply destroying the driller might not be adequate to take out the supply line. We may have to orchestrate some teams to take or destroy their camps on the moons and planets to effectively do that.

Though the staff and organizers are not going to command the tactics of the event. We don't want to overstep our member organization leaders and our roll is to manage the more behind the scenes infrastructure of the event. Things such as maintaining the social media pages like the discord, the spectrum, the organization itself so that people can network with each other and plan what they are going to do among themselves. We also act as liaisons to those with questions about the event.

The king ships are going to be a massive undertaking. Those class of ships, at least as explained in the past, aren't going to just die in an explosion. They are mobile fortresses containing hundreds of vanduul fighters that we will have to fight over a long and arduous process that may take several hours. We will likely not be able to board it as well, though I really want to be able to.

As for splitting their fleets. We need people to scout to actually determine fleet makeup and reinforcement rates. We are trying to push them out of an entire system. System's are big, they have the foothold and number advantage. All we really know so far is that their are going to be some minor raiding parties that are flitting around and some not so minor ones flying around.

I imagine we won't be able to lure the largest ships into atmosphere as the kingships and Bengal type ships are suppose to be finite resources. This may work with their corvettes and freighters though, but it may be safer to just shoot out their engines with normal guns and let gravity do its thing than rely on distortions temporary effects.

It should be noted that armor is not a thing at the moment, eventually small weapons will do little or nothing to the most heavily armored ships so all the larger capital class ships and even some of the smaller ships like Valkyrie and Terrapin will be a lot harder to kill in the future. So fighters might not be as effective as they are now against large ships.

Their fighters are built to hit hard in ambushes and alpha strikes. They favor cannons that shoot slow but deal massive damage as well as ramming tactics. They will outnumber us and a lot of our people will simply be chaotically roaming the system shooting anything that looks like a Vanduul. Vanduul will also have various levels of competency, but their smaller ships do seem to be glass cannons, at least this time, and a small group of coordinated players should be able to fend off raiding parties at least equal to their own numbers multiple times.

Make no mistake, people taking part in this event will probably die at least once. It was originally going to be a suicide run into hostile space, that has since be padded with the possibility of actually winning and breaking the system from Vanduul control. But, this does not mean it's going to be easy

Capital ships should serve a support role but that is up to the owners/operators, they can deal a lot of damage and take a lot of damage, but many are missile boats and we are gonna be far from civilized space to restock. Even if we have a few organizations intending to run cargo, there is no way they would be able to keep up wit the sheer quantity of missiles and ballistic ammo people can spam against minor targets. They should probably use their missiles where it counts when those around them start getting overwhelmed to relieve pressure.

  • ~L~
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Re: Some key questions that need to be answered before we can decide on a strategy
Reply #45
First off I would like to welcome you to Operation Pitchfork (OPPF). Here is your orientation packet with some general resources to help get you rolling here, although you seem to be finding your way around.

I see Demontank answered a lost of stuff already. I am going to respond to all your posts on different boards, here, cho, just to make it a bit easier. The Vanduul are a Tribal and nomadic race and as of yet we have seen nothing to indicate the presence of a Vanduul home world. What's more, the Vanduul we fight in one system may not be the same as in another system. There are tribal tensions within the Vanduul culture as well and one tribe may not necessarily be willing to come to the aid of another in danger, or if they do get involved it could be to take advantage of a situation that has weakened an enemy tribe. Alternatively it could of course force tribes to work for a common goal, even reluctantly, and what could have been a fight against one enemy becomes a fight against two or more.

As Demontank mentioned there is no official command structure. This is a volunteer for fun event. The closest thing we will have to a C2 would be the Intelligence Research and Data Analysis Center (IRADAC). In IRADAC we intend to collect and process information to develop intelligence and distribute guidance and recommendations based on that intelligence. Whether anyone chooses to heed any of that will be their choice because as Demontank said we aren't going to command the tactics of the event, but we do want to have something available that can provide participants an edge and some more variable options than just mass at a location and fight.

Regarding communications ships, we may have other options than just destroying them depending on how far along EW mechanics are at the time of the operation. Same goes for the potential with cyber warfare.

The Art of Maneuver looks interesting and just from your run down could be helpful for those without military experience in a command position or intelligence operations. Although I personally I don't care for the point of #7 entirely. That is to say it only touches on a small part of equal force engagement. There are many options to consider in that regards in shaping the battlefield and the fight depending on the engagement and its location. Even in a retreat one could still utilize a mobile defense or simply retrograde to alternate positions instead. In the end though regardless of what actions we take there will be losses and all we can do is hope to mitigate those losses as best we can.

I do like where you are going with things though and it is good to see some interest from someone in this again. A lot of interest and activity in this has died down with how long it's been and how slow progress of the games development was. Please feel free to continue sharing thoughts and ideas and participating in discussions either here or on the OPPF discord. As Eisenhower said "Plans are useless but planning is indispensable" and it is something I very much agree with.

Again, welcome to OPPF. If you have any questions about anything regarding OPPF don't hesitate to ask. I also recommend you to check out Guardians of Orion which is our after pitchfork OP. In the event of us somehow being successful in pushing the Vanduul out of the Orion system, ORIONGUARD is the operation intended to retain the system and conduct the sustainment operations that will allow colonists to slowly move back in to the system and start building new infrastructure and to rebuild what the Vanduul had taken and destroyed.