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Topic: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal) (Read 2088 times) previous topic - next topic

  • G.Crane
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"The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
At the risk of adding more cooks to the kitchen, here's my proposed plan of attack. Feel free to poke holes in it or add/change anything.

My idea is to form one main column that pushes through Nul, Caliban and then on to Orion. Expeditionary forces would first recon Caliban and then hang back as the fight escalates. But at the same time they would act as flankers and also harass the enemy when presented with opportunity targets. No need to split our forces up into more smaller groups for specialised flankers as there would be enough freelance pilots and such anyway.

Also a recon group would head to Tiber, to provide an early warning if any enemy decide to swing around and attack Garron etc. If they come up against overwhelming force they can pull back to Garron where hopefully there should be some UEE military for backup. Also, the reason for pushing one main line is because the UEE should have Kellog and Vega, and Garron fortified. Shouldn't be a threat of Vanduul pushing too far from that direction while we attack. And if the expedionary force in Tiber pulls some of the Vanduul out and they engage the UEE in Garron, that should help us too.

Supply groups should try and maintain positions in Nul and Garron, and some should then set up in Caliban after the Main Body has advanced through. These main directions of attack allow us a line of retreat if needed, as Tiber itself seems too difficult to hold as Vanduul can come from too many sides. (sorry, I know Jack Daniels and some others want more fronts, but not so sure about splitting up forces so much at the beginning at least.) Caliban is easier, but still risky with another jump point from Vanguard.

All this means we will need commanders for each supply group, expeditionary force and then squad leaders under them for coordination.

I know it's not very different from most strategies, but it's early and modular. Jonais' plan is very similar. Other ideas can easily be joined on, or this could be tacked on to someone else's. Again, poke holes in it and let me know what you think.



On a side note, Orion, the giant in mythology, either got his name from "of the mountain" or "urine". Damn Vanduul would choose to occupy that system.

Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #1
As a plan of attack it's as good as any other to be honest. As you said, others have proposed nearly identical plans.

I believe the core of the problem lies in logistics and long-term goals other than how we get to Orion. Inevitably, all plans lead to Orion (sooner or later), but it's the prep-work and long-term occupation that really worries me.

My qualm with your plan is the same I've had with other similar plans. Neither Caliban nor Orion present (as of yet) an interesting strategic advantage and launching the assault from Nul gives our supply lines a handicap right of the start.
It's a penguin... with a gun. I'd run if I were you.

  • Jonais
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Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #2
It is nearly identical to what I proposed so it should be no surprise that I like it :) hehe

As for Supply lines I like Nul because both the UEE orgs and the Pirate orgs will be able to congregate there with little issue where as Garron posses huge problems for the Pirate folks.

I suspect out main fights are going to be in Caliban and Tiber so the supply lines are going to be the same length either way. I judge the length of the supply line coming from the nearest HUMAN controlled system whether it's controlled by lawless or UEE. Saying otherwise just means that the length depends on if you're lawless or lawful and since we have both in our ranks the originating system really doesn't matter since it can be protected by either.

Starting the fight at Caliban also gives us the added bonus of figuring out how to work together as a huge group since Tiber is likely to be the worse fight given the lore.
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  • G.Crane
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Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #3
Yeah, you're both right, the biggest concern is the supply and logistics no matter where we go. The more I think about it, the more I think it's going to be a problem. Especially, fuel. Of course it depends on the game mechanics which won't be understood for some time yet, but I'm wondering if it's even going to be possible for us to hold a sustained fight that far out. Exploration ships shouldn't have a problem, but most any other ship will have fuel concerns. Our supply lines are going to have to be really well stocked with fuel.

Another thing, is that seeing as CIG know about this, I wonder if they'll decide to mix things up and send in a Vanduul force from one of the other fronts, like Kellog etc, just to screw with us. That'll throw a spanner in the works of any plan we come up with because they could just change the area the Vanduul come in on the fly, go for our weak spot. :)

  • G.Crane
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Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #4
some of this brings up some other major points. They've been mentioned to various degrees. The two major areas that this operation hinges on is communication and the ability for us to take over Vanduul infrastructure. Caliban seems to be the main area of operation where this needs to happen. Once Caliban is ours we need to have control of any Vanduul factories, shipyards, fuel refineries etc. The  whole thing hinges on this. If Vanduul are only roaming fleets and all their structures are much deeper in Vanduul space, as the lore suggests, then this op is a bust.

Don't get me wrong, even if that's so, I'm still up for it :)

Also, has there been any development in regards to sorting out commanders and specifically who is in charge of things like recon, supply groups, intelligence information, etc? Probably still early days, but just wondering.

  • Jonais
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Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #5
Lore tells us there is stuff in Tiber and that the Vanduul have amassed a significantly large force there. That's where we're most likely to find any factories and ship yards. Caliban is more the push through to get to Orion and secure our flank.

As for commanders... It's generally been agreed that Sailor is the General and anything else is going to be on a squadron basis. Orgs will command their own groups, same with Lone Wolf groups. The recon will be pretty independent with anything OP related being posted in this forum. Supply lines will pretty much run themselves.

Beyond that we're going to need to see what's available in game for communication systems for additional coordination.
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Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #6
So far it seems that it'll happen like Jonais has said. We'll have one man (sailor) who will decide on which plan/s to follow and then hundreds of self-organized groups following the general guide lines to achieve whichever objectives we set upon ourselves.

Depending how hardcore the dev's do the economy system though, I'm not so sure the supply lines will "run themselves"... Think of it as Xerxes army... we will "drink the rivers dry". Once there's no more water... well... thirst might become a bigger issue than the Vanduul.
It's a penguin... with a gun. I'd run if I were you.

  • G.Crane
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Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #7
That's cool. Has there been any thought to area commanders? Or maybe commanders isn't the best word, but something like that. For instance, a commander for Caliban. Mainly so there's someone to coordinate what happens in that system, someone to bounce info or questions up to. Not sure if that's getting into too much of a strict command structure though, but might help coordination.

Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #8
The Operation would theoretically benefit from a rigid command structure. However, it's not like you'd be commanding an army of AI bots or submissive peons. There's no rigid command because there's no way to enforce orders on such a varied group of people and play styles.

So far, it has been widely accepted that we must allow people to do their own thing while trying to nudge them in the direction we want the operation to go...
It's a penguin... with a gun. I'd run if I were you.

  • G.Crane
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Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #9
Yeah, this is true. But what I'm more proposing is these commanders, or more accurately, coordinators might not even be in-game. I'm thinking they sit there with some database or some such and fill in information that strike commanders or anyone can send them about a system. At the same time people could request information such as nearest fuel resupply, nearest friendly carrier etc.

I was trying to think of a program that could be updated in real time and then anyone could look at any point during the operation, but not sure if there's something like that really. Limited to bouncing requests up to the coordinator and such.

--Actually, nevermind. I just thought about instancing, and it'll probably make something like this impossible.--
  • Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 01:09:37 PM by G.Crane

Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #10
Well, I guess some kind of a 'system counselor' would be very useful - especially for lone wolfs. Beside obvious military tasks, this counselor could coordinate fuel, SAR etc. operations which might be quite challenging for lone wolfs to organize themselves.

Instances might be a problem, but not the most important one. I guess, the most important problem is, that this is a boring job with a high workload.

  • Harker
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Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #11
Supply lines won't be so much of an issue, if resupply convoys are properly escorted. The main danger there is if someone gets wind of the convoys and sets an ambush, so we'll need to look at precautions such as rotating supply lines and giving convoys multiple layers of fighter patrols to get the wind of any attackers early.

I personally would place one or two people in charge of logistics, and their duties would be split between distributing supplies amongst the front as well as organising pickups from where ever we are sourcing the materials from (including liberated Vanduul supplies!).

Then there would be maybe half a dozen or so large convoys comprised of Starfarers, Idrises, Connies, Freelancers, Catties etc as well as escort craft. Each convoy would have their own commander, who would organise a route to take in concert with the logistics commander above.

It'll take a bit of organisation and prep, but I think we can do it. We'll just need a few handfuls of motivated people to form the "core" of each convoy, and then direct new arrivals who want to help to each convoy as needed.

Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #12
I did my thesis on logistics. The problem with supply lines, even escorted ones, is that the longer they are, the lower the returns. Consider a Starfarer. Sure, it can carry 75 tons of fuel. But, how much of that fuel does it need to expand to get to get from Null (or points beyond) to Orion? How much fuel does it need to use to refuel escorts? How much fuel does it need for the return hop? Second, the longer the leg, the less refueling missions a tanker can do, which means you need more of them, which means you need more fuel, etc.

Not that I'm shooting down the idea of convoying supplies in. All I'm saying is that if they make it real, it won't be as easy. I can rummage through my thesis to find sources, if you're particularly interested in doing some additional reading.

I wonder to what degree we will be able to make space stations and the like.....having a fuel dump in Orion would certainly make refueling easier. Assuming it didn't get blown up, of course.

As for the base plan, of advancing on the Nul-Caliban-Orion axis, I am, unsurprisingly, a fan of it too, since I proposed that basic plan a few months ago as well.
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
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  • Harker
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Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #13
A lot of detail involved in logistics will have to wait until we know more about supplies needed, consumption rates, production / distribution centers etc. Our main options for procurement seem clear though; periodic convoys from UEE worlds, carrying large stocks around with the front line fleet groups or distributing captured supplies. Most likely whatever we go with will involve a combination of all three.

  • G.Crane
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Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #14
Yeah, also the reason why I was thinking we need to take over infrastructure in Caliban, or anywhere we advance for that matter. I believe Sailor also mentioned the importance of this a while back.

Re: "The Vanduul have made a critical error..." (Strategic proposal)
Reply #15

Yeah, also the reason why I was thinking we need to take over infrastructure in Caliban, or anywhere we advance for that matter. I believe Sailor also mentioned the importance of this a while back.


Honestly, securing Caliban is integral to the success of the operation anyways; if Caliban isn't secured, then our lines of communication and supply will be perpetually threatened. Granted, securing Caliban may also mean launching periodic spoiling attacks/raids into Vanguard, but we can probably have a few small detachments. We don't need to hold Vanguard as well; we just need to make it hard for the Vandys to attack out of it.
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
Envoy, USC
XO, USC Defense Force Training Command
Member, USC Interstellar Commerce
Member, USC Expeditionary Corps
Member, USC Department of Aerospace Engineering

Aurora LX (Traveller's Tales)
Anvil F7C-M (Ares' Gauntlet)
Anvil Carrack (Grey-Eyed Goddess)
Aegis Vanguard (Hero for Hire)
Anvil Crucible (Rustoff)