Skip to main content You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.

WikiFullscreen ChatVoice Chat (Discord)Org PageF.A.Q.

Topic: Alternate Invasion plan. (Read 8253 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #50
Note: Its critical to know that the Vanduul and UEE are probably going to have human commanders from the design team, at the very least its been hinted at.

Regarding an attack on Tiber as cutting off the head of a snake, I don't really think that that is an applicable term when it comes right down to it. Assuming we could WIN at Tiber (which is looking like long odds to me) it would be more akin to cutting off the head of a cockroach. The Vanduul are a survivable race, in fact its my bet that their disunity is the only thing stopping them from being unstoppable, they make whole colonies disappear using a single clan for goodness sake. While it would harm their ability to react in the region and they would no longer have a unified fleet, causing the multiple clans that inhabit the area to scatter is bad news waiting to happen. I doubt we would get a unified response from them after that point in the area, however, those large population centers in need of feeding will need plenty of new resources, and verge colonies are ripe targets.

If Orion is attacked, due to the scattered nature of the Vanduul, I find it difficult to believe they would move their military forces as a unified dedicated force into human space. The very strategic value of the Orion system to for the Vanduul is questionable at best. With the only thing going for it being its proximity to Tiber now that all the human colonies have long since vanished (or lost contact, but I doubt Vanduul would do such a thing as spare them).

This is why in my opinion the first thing that needs to go down, is we need to have a pre-pitchfork. In which we gather a large fleet and sweep the Nul system. This way we can establish a better forward operating base with less bureaucracy to wade through. And from Nul we could be stockpiling months in advance before the actual attack.

While this may draw attention, this is actually exactly what I want to happen. Since we are going to be on an offensive battle, Caliban seems like the best option we have to make an offensive in. It is relatively undefended, being a mere pass-through point. Therefore, even if they do catch us early and unify against us (again, clan structure, unlikely) they won't have anywhere near the amount of defensive force as Tiber or even Orion have set up, that way the playing field is a little closer to level. And you guys have brought something else to my attention, it is definetely a good idea to be attacking in raids in various systems along the front, just to remind the Vanduul of the lingering possibility that the attack might come from another direction as well as to gather intel. Again, make it look like our focus is on Caliban, which in a way it will be.

When the assault begins, the fleet will jump through the point and immediately begin assaulting Vanduul were they float. If a fleet isn't there, the local clans will surely send out distress and assemble an impromptu one. Anyway, the hope is to get the Vanduul involved in the biggest cluster imaginable. While we are battling the fleet, I think several squadrons should go black op and enter Orion.

If any of you are familiar with the book The Fall of Reach, (and this is going on the assumption that the Vanduul have either set up orbital defenses or are using the remains of our own) you will know how the Covenant captured Reach, they did not attack it directly, but instead used elite teams to assault its orbital defenses. I suggest we do the same, however slightly differently. Since myself and the rest of DigiRev have been told by JCom to work on intelligence gathering (namely, finding out how to capture Vanduul warships without triggering automatic detonation), we hope to have gathered lots of intel on Vanduul by now. What I am preposing is commandeering one or more of these guns with the planetside and eva black ops teams, and then begin to fire on Vanduul ships, either forcing a retreat from Caliban, or allowing us to hold the planet.

IF the Vanduul retreat from here, then we can do what I mentioned in the plan in the forum post. However if they don't, as we gradually wear down the fleet, we can slip more and more ships through and begin to launch a full scale invasion. There are some risks involved with this plan, namely, if the Vanduul don't retreat and we are unable to break Calibans forces, the men on the other side will be trapped and have to either stay put and make a last stand or try to sneak back out, which will be a hell of a lot more difficult than getting in.

If we make it past Caliban, we can possibly use the UEE's reluctance to get into the brunt of the fighting to our advantage, we can ask them to begin fortifying the recently cleared system, and therefore their very presence on Caliban will serve as a vanguard for us. This is one of the reasons I think this invasion is going to take much more time that people allow for in standard chat, frankly I don't believe there is any way we can make a dent in a single weekend.

Now, once Orion has been taken over, the Vanduul in the surrounding systems are going to have to make a choice, abandon the system and try to fortify against raids in the future. OR use the Tiber fleet to launch an offensive to retake Orion, now this is why we will have to be fast and use stealth to capture instead of force to destroy in my opinion (notable exception being the fleet battle in Caliban), we'll need to be hunkered in for the inevitable siege that is going to occur. It will be far easier to utilize what is already there instead of starting from scratch. Of course we should work on building additional defenses and whatnot, but you get the idea. From there, its a matter of outlasting them, eventually they will be forced to give up. The UEE fleet in Caliban will prevent major incursion into our supply lines, and our forces on Orion will have to prevent the Tiber fleet from making it to Vanguard to do such a thing.

But using this, we can force the Vanduul to fight an offensive fight in the long run, one where we will have a far greater advantage than running into the Vanduul trenches head on.

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #51
Small edit to my above post, when I say fire guns on ships, I mean ones in the Orion system, forcing the amassed Caliban forces back in order to retake it and prevent the damage it may cause.

  • Hawkeye
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #52

Note: Its critical to know that the Vanduul and UEE are probably going to have human commanders from the design team, at the very least its been hinted at.

Regarding an attack on Tiber as cutting off the head of a snake, I don't really think that that is an applicable term when it comes right down to it. Assuming we could WIN at Tiber (which is looking like long odds to me) it would be more akin to cutting off the head of a cockroach. The Vanduul are a survivable race, in fact its my bet that their disunity is the only thing stopping them from being unstoppable, they make whole colonies disappear using a single clan for goodness sake. While it would harm their ability to react in the region and they would no longer have a unified fleet, causing the multiple clans that inhabit the area to scatter is bad news waiting to happen. I doubt we would get a unified response from them after that point in the area, however, those large population centers in need of feeding will need plenty of new resources, and verge colonies are ripe targets.


I kinda doubt, it will _end_ a unifide Vanduul fleet, quite the opposite (see my point 5)


If Orion is attacked, due to the scattered nature of the Vanduul, I find it difficult to believe they would move their military forces as a unified dedicated force into human space. The very strategic value of the Orion system to for the Vanduul is questionable at best. With the only thing going for it being its proximity to Tiber now that all the human colonies have long since vanished (or lost contact, but I doubt Vanduul would do such a thing as spare them).


I agree, but, as I say in 5) it might very well convince the Vanduul to unite in the first place


This is why in my opinion the first thing that needs to go down, is we need to have a pre-pitchfork. In which we gather a large fleet and sweep the Nul system. This way we can establish a better forward operating base with less bureaucracy to wade through. And from Nul we could be stockpiling months in advance before the actual attack.

While this may draw attention, this is actually exactly what I want to happen. Since we are going to be on an offensive battle, Caliban seems like the best option we have to make an offensive in. It is relatively undefended, being a mere pass-through point. Therefore, even if they do catch us early and unify against us (again, clan structure, unlikely) they won't have anywhere near the amount of defensive force as Tiber or even Orion have set up, that way the playing field is a little closer to level. And you guys have brought something else to my attention, it is definetely a good idea to be attacking in raids in various systems along the front, just to remind the Vanduul of the lingering possibility that the attack might come from another direction as well as to gather intel. Again, make it look like our focus is on Caliban, which in a way it will be.


I can see the value of clearing out Nul and establishing bases of operation there in preparation of taking Orion/Caliban

Warning, long winded response :)

Several points I´d like to mention:

1) I am pretty sure we will have to face the Vanduul "Tiber Fleet" sooner or later, no matter what, _especially_ if the Vanduul are commanded by some Devs (as I expect, I agree with you there)

2) Given the scattered entry when going through a jump point will make defending a jump point from the exit-side darn difficult (at least that is my take on it, as CR has stated that it will be _very_ difficult to camp a jump point exit).

3) Asuming 2) is correct, the way to defend a jump point will probably be camping it on the _entry_ side and let the enemy come to you, i.e. if you want to hold the Tiber - Orion jump point, you have to deploy in the Tiber system.

4) Again asuming 2) and 3) are correct and looking at the current map (as inacurate it may be) this seems to be easier to do in Tiber than in Caliban, given we can just jump into Tiber and hold the Tiber - Garron jump point with a friendly system at our back where damaged ships can retreat to for refit/repair while in Caliban, we would have to hold the Vanguard - Caliban _and_ the Orion - Caliban jump points and the retreat system would be Caliban, a just conquered system without any ground faciliteis, so retreating ships would have to go to Nul or even Croshaw for repair/refit.

5) Orion is said to be lightly or even undefended and that is good.
I am pretty sure there are _some_ Vanduul forcees in Caliban and Vanguard however and in order to secure Orion, those forces have to be taken out, even if only to lessen the burdon on holding Orion (3 known and 2 suspected jump routes to Vanduul systems would be a nightmare to guard).
This, however will take time, and that, I think, is a key.

I have been thinking about tribal societies in SF and what I came up with was, that usually, those societies don´t unite at the first sign of trouble, only after one or two single clans are obliterated, they finally start to realize that the _entire_ society is in danger and start to organize a unified response.

If we beat one or two smaller clans in Caliban, Vanguard and Orion, this will send a message to the other Vanduul clans.

If we hit Tiber first, I would expect the Vanduul to engage us by clan first, i.e. not as a unified force; and given the importance of The Grinder, I also expect some of the strongest Clans to be in Tiber (p.s. do we have any information about _more_ than on clan/tribe being in Tiber?)
I´d rather engage those strong clans one after the other, than engage and defeat a few small clans and have to face the unified strong clans later on.

6) I kinda doubt we could convince the Vanduul to come to us by jumping into Caliban and holding the Caliban - Nul jump point, because, as you say, Caliban is of no real importance.
Jumping into Tiber and holding the Tiber - Garron jump point is another thing, however. Tiber is, as far as I can tell from the lore, a highly important system to the Vanduul and I don´t think they could ignore a Human fleet entering that system, almost _guaranteeing_ a response.

7) I agree on raiding early on along the entire border but I thought that was agreed upon already under the "recon in force" label.

8) I realize this is all speculation and might be revealed to be complete BS when the first recon results come in, I just wanted to show my reason for advocating Tiber as the first target for the attack.
"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #53
I just find it hard to believe that the UEEN can't take Tiber with organized battle fleets, but we can. Furthermore, I see no reason to take on the enemy's strongest point in a battle of annihilation, when we can bypass it and wear it down (from two different directions!) while still maintaining essentially secure supply lines.

Again, I'm thinking Rabaul from World War II. The US didn't go after Rabaul in a battle of annihilation; they captured surrounding islands, built airfields and sub bases, and cut Rabaul off. Attrition, rather than annihilation.

I see no need to crush the Vanduul fleet in Tiber, when Tiber is not our objective: Orion is. Sure, keep the pressure up on Tiber, but do so via raids. Take out Vandy logistical ships, so all that Bacon in Tiber can't move out of Tiber.
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
Envoy, USC
XO, USC Defense Force Training Command
Member, USC Interstellar Commerce
Member, USC Expeditionary Corps
Member, USC Department of Aerospace Engineering

Aurora LX (Traveller's Tales)
Anvil F7C-M (Ares' Gauntlet)
Anvil Carrack (Grey-Eyed Goddess)
Aegis Vanguard (Hero for Hire)
Anvil Crucible (Rustoff)

  • Hawkeye
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #54
Hm, according to the organisation table from here

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/spectrum-dispatch/13492-LORE-BUILDER-THIRTEEN-ORGANIZATION-NUMBERING

a typical battlegroup of one Bengal and one CVE seems to carry three squadrons of 12 fighters/bombers each for a total of 36 "planes".

Earth Fleet (wich should be the strongest there is, IMO) consists of 3 battle groups which would give it a total of:

3 Bengals
3 CVE
6 to 12 escorts
a number of support/combat ships
and 108 fighters/bombers (not counting those on Idrises and larger cap-ships)


As SC stated, there aren´t a large number of Bengals in service, so I feel it _very_ unlikely, the previous attacks had more than a hand full of Bengals (plus escorts) and two entire fleets is probably already stretching it.

If this holds true, even now we can muster ten times that number of small craft.

Granted, those craft will not be full blown military craft and granted, we lack the large number of smaller capital ships, a UEE fleet would have, but I don´t feel we would be all that much outgunned by a regular UEE fleet.
"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

  • TEUTknight
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #55
For now ( will most likely change when we are in beta and conducting recon)
I think it would be wise to send the majority of our forces through the null->caliban--> orion route

while at the same time having a smaller force that is a mix of long range combat (missiles) and anti-fighter ships with some other ships as well to hold them at Tiber at long range and not to close into combat, just to hurt them at Tiber and possibly prevent them from reinforcing Orion, (they would most likely want to defend Tiber more due to the salvage)

Hopefully this minor assault on Tiber will buy time to fortify Orion.

  • Hawkeye
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #56
As I said in my post before last, defending a jump point from inside the system you want to defend seems to be pretty difficult, due to the scattered exit you get, when you go through a jump point, forcing the defender to racing after the attacker, trying to hunt him down. While you do this, further enemy forces might come through and hit your remaining guards.

It seems to be much easier to enter the _other_ system and camp the enemie´s jump point entry.

In Orion, this just leaves the problem, that there are two _suspected_ jump points (according to our current map which, I might add, is likely horribly inacurate), we have no idea where those jump points are, so we can´t guard them, and even if we knew, we would have to divide our forces - and call me conservative, but dividing forces in the face of the enemy doesn´t sound like a viable strategy to me.

That´s the advantage of an attacker, he can choose where to strike and concentrate forces at that point.
And that´s also the big advantage I see in an attack from Garron to Tiber. Only one jump point to hold and a friendly system at our back.

Hm, how about this:
Have those forkers, who have a hard time operating in UEE space (with reinforcements of law-abiding citizens if deemed necessary) go the Null - Caliban - Orion route. Given those systems are supposed to be only lightly defende, this should be possible with a smallish portion of the Pitchfork fleet, while the majority parks on the Tiber - Garron jump point and binds the Vanduul forces in Tiber.
Once the Tiber-Vanduul are comitted (and provided everything goes according to plan in Orion), the Orion fleet can enter Tiber and hit the Vanduul from the rear.

Note:
I agree that recon will probably change everything and all planning and theorycrafting will probably be moot, but, as a long-time WITP-AE/Aurora player,  I just love to do it :=)
"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #57
re: Theorycrafting: I have a Master's in Military History, get the Journal of Military History, have history books to read when I'm not otherwise occupied (right now, Beevor's book on WWII), *and* play strategy games obsessively. I know *exactly* what you mean when you talk about how theorycrafting is fun.

Now, as for what you mentioned in your last post, I think that's the best compromise we can get. A two-pronged attack risks defeat in detail.

HOWEVER.

A fixing force to keep the Vanduul in Tiber, while a main force proceeds via Nul-Caliban-Orion, and eventually attacks Tiber simultaneously with the fixing force, caters to both camps, without exposing us to (too much) risk.

Granted, I'm still leery as hell about trying to annihilate1 the Vanduul in Tiber. I still think we should bypass Tiber entirely, and just go for Orion. But, the combination of strategic initiative (WE determine when the coup de main occurs) and superior operational positioning (coming in from two jump points as opposed to one) means that it feasible, without being complex. Granted, I would still want the fixing force to jump through with a UEE battle group accompanying, but c'est la guerre.

The only thing that concerns me is that we probably would need to detail small groups to raid/launch spoiling attacks on Virgil and Vanguard.2 If we concentrated on one axis of advance, we would only need to do this for one system.  Also, I'm still scared that our combined force, even attacking through two jump points, may not be able to defeat the Vanduul forces in the Grinder.

1: I use "annihilate" in the Delbrückian (i.e. of Hans Delbrück) sense, and as a polar opposite of "attrition". If you want to know more about Hans Delbrück, Makers of Modern Strategy has an excellent chapter by Gordon Craig on Delbrück.

2.: Thinking about the casualties we are likely to sustain in both the fixing force and the main force (we also need to come up with a cooler name for both. Hammer Force and Anvil Force?), we will need to manage our hulls very carefully, especially since insurance may not be able to replace all our hull losses in that weekend. We need to be certain that any multi-crew ship goes out with a full compliment.
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
Envoy, USC
XO, USC Defense Force Training Command
Member, USC Interstellar Commerce
Member, USC Expeditionary Corps
Member, USC Department of Aerospace Engineering

Aurora LX (Traveller's Tales)
Anvil F7C-M (Ares' Gauntlet)
Anvil Carrack (Grey-Eyed Goddess)
Aegis Vanguard (Hero for Hire)
Anvil Crucible (Rustoff)

  • TEUTknight
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #58
thinking that the force that holds them at Tiber will be codenamed shield, while the the the main force will be called sword.

And I have to say I like your idea about instead of Sword fortifying Orion, they strike Tiber from behind, could cause a brief disarray in their formation (turning to face the larger force), for the main force to (hopefully) take down the engines of the kingship and destroy some of their forces.


as for strategy games... total war, civilization and sins of a solar empire ftw!
I have one war history book but I have read it over and over again, (Carl von Clausewitz "On War")

and I agree that all multi crew ships should go with a full compliment, but from what I see from the current numbers on the google doc, we have way more ships than actual players so I am going to guess we will have to fill the crew with AI, which brings me to the conclusion that we are all going to have to work as a team to acquire the funds for this assault!

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #59

thinking that the force that holds them at Tiber will be codenamed shield, while the the the main force will be called sword.


Sure, whatever. I like hammer and anvil, 'cause it goes together better.

Quote
And I have to say I like your idea about instead of Sword fortifying Orion, they strike Tiber from behind, could cause a brief disarray in their formation (turning to face the larger force), for the main force to (hopefully) take down the engines of the kingship and destroy some of their forces.


The disarray in their formations was what I was thinking. If there is one big formation, hitting it from two disparate vectors could give us the advantage we need; if there are two formations, then we're dealing with a portion rather than one big glomp (which I am a fan of; glomping is generally bad).

As for the main force, I envisioned the main force as the force attacking along the Nul-Caliban-Orion route. The Garrion-Tiber force would be large enough to make the Vanduul want to stay in Tiber, but not large enough to detract from the main force. If we're talking percentages, figure 50% advancing along Nul-Caliban-Orion, 25% as the Garrion-Tiber fixing force, 10% raiding Vanguard, 10% raiding Virgil, and 5% as a reserve.

Quote
as for strategy games... total war, civilization and sins of a solar empire ftw!
I have one war history book but I have read it over and over again, (Carl von Clausewitz "On War")


Total War, heck yes. Working through a Napoleon campaign as the British right now. Civ V is a good diversion (if far too grainy for my tastes), and Sins of a Solar Empire is RTS trash, IMO. Play Space Empires V. As for reading old Carl, well, kudos to you, but he's really longwinded and "mumbly". You need to branch out. Try some Jomini for variety's sake, or the (well-overquoted) Sun Tzu, or tool around on the websites of the Strategic Studies Institute (http://strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/), or....well, CGSC/CGSS, SAMS, or any of the other advanced schools of military thinking. If you can access them. Clausewitz isn't the be-all-and-end-all of strategy; while Basil Liddel Hart is kind of a blowhard, I think he is more than a little justified in calling Clausewitz the, "Mahdi of Mass".

Quote
and I agree that all multi crew ships should go with a full compliment, but from what I see from the current numbers on the google doc, we have way more ships than actual players so I am going to guess we will have to fill the crew with AI, which brings me to the conclusion that we are all going to have to work as a team to acquire the funds for this assault!


Yeah, AI crew may be the key thing we can do, but....I just have no idea how quickly we will lose ships, and I don't want to have no hulls and a bunch of pilots rarin' to go.
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
Envoy, USC
XO, USC Defense Force Training Command
Member, USC Interstellar Commerce
Member, USC Expeditionary Corps
Member, USC Department of Aerospace Engineering

Aurora LX (Traveller's Tales)
Anvil F7C-M (Ares' Gauntlet)
Anvil Carrack (Grey-Eyed Goddess)
Aegis Vanguard (Hero for Hire)
Anvil Crucible (Rustoff)

  • Hawkeye
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #60
I agree on Clausewitz. It is very hard to read for me because he goes on and on and on.
Sun Tsu I found easier to read but my "library" is mostely about operational stuff (WW2 mostely) with a little bit of strategy thrown in for good meassure :)


Something just occured to me.

We are allways talking about _players_ taking part in OPPF, but we know every player flown ship can be accompanied by 1 or 2 NPC piloted ships for escorts.

Yes, that will cost UECs, but it will also double or tripple our number in the attack.
This also means, we don´t need 50 players to fill an instance (assuming a limit of 100) but just 15 or 25.

On the other hand, it will probably not serve us very well, if we fill an instance with low-level NPCs that are blown away the moment they show up.
Probably be better to restrict our NPC escorts to the good to elite ones (which. of course, cost more and might not be in plentiful supply).
Hm, of course, even with all the training I will be doing, I, personally, will probably not get better than average as my "twitch finger days" have long been gone, lol.

And what about hiring NPC merc corps (if this is possible)?
Are we trying to get as many NPCs involved as possible (aside from possible UEEN support) or should we do this as kind of a "player only" effort?
Myself, I would say: We need all the help we can get! But I could see the argument being made, that this should be a player centric/dominated affair.

"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #61

And I have to say I like your idea about instead of Sword fortifying Orion, they strike Tiber from behind, could cause a brief disarray in their formation (turning to face the larger force), for the main force to (hopefully) take down the engines of the kingship and destroy some of their forces.


Instancing won't work quite like that. Any battle we hold in Tiber where our instance isn't maxed out on players will be easily defeated by the Vanduul. Therefore, when the "Sword" group arrives, if they tried to enter the "Shield" instances, they wouldn't be able to. Now, if you pull out forces from the "Shield" group the moment the "Sword" group bombers are ready to engage, that might work.


Hopefully this minor assault on Tiber will buy time to fortify Orion.


Fortify Orion? How do you plan on fortifying a solar system? We're not going to be getting minerals and building Photon Cannons and Pylons. We aren't gonna be digging trenches. "Fortifying" a system would mean building up its economy, population, and defense force. This would take years, not hours.



I just find it hard to believe that the UEEN can't take Tiber with organized battle fleets, but we can. Furthermore, I see no reason to take on the enemy's strongest point in a battle of annihilation, when we can bypass it and wear it down (from two different directions!) while still maintaining essentially secure supply lines.

Again, I'm thinking Rabaul from World War II. The US didn't go after Rabaul in a battle of annihilation; they captured surrounding islands, built airfields and sub bases, and cut Rabaul off. Attrition, rather than annihilation.

I see no need to crush the Vanduul fleet in Tiber, when Tiber is not our objective: Orion is. Sure, keep the pressure up on Tiber, but do so via raids. Take out Vandy logistical ships, so all that Bacon in Tiber can't move out of Tiber.


You are making a series of incorrect assumptions. Tiber IS the system of production and resource-gathering for the Vanduul in the area. You can't engage in siege tactics, because they have plenty of resources there. Second, we don't have time for siege tactics, and even if we did, forces from deeper within Vanduul space would hit us in the rear eventually.

One problem is the self-replicating factories. With self-replicating factories, you have the benefit of possible exponential growth and production. So they're obviously holding back on production, although we don't know why. Maybe they don't want to use up all their resources at once, and instead want to be able to use those same resources to produce more advanced craft as they come up with better designs. But that's speculation. The point is that dealing a little bit of damage here and a little bit of damage there will never work, because they can always recover from any minor injury at Tiber. We heard nothing about the previous UEE attacks slowing down the Vanduul forces as you might expect from a typical production line and military. Any time you attack an enemy with "regeneration" in any video game, or pen and paper game, or whatever, you hold back until you're ready to kill it all at once. If you take your time and attack slowly and steadily, you will be wasting your effort and resources.

Attacking logistical ships in Tiber... what? You know they gather the resources RIGHT THERE, right? It's on-site production. Even if it was shipped in from out of system, there's no way we can prevent that from a staging point near the Garron jump point. You're also ignoring one thing we've been told about Tiber: that it's at its safest during large-scale battles. Sending small raiding parties won't work. The Vanduul have too much of a home field advantage.

You're planning for a war of attrition, which we don't have time for. Not simply because attrition doesn't work against foes that "regenerate" quickly, but also because the op lasts just under four days.

And of course, again, you're ignoring the fact that this operation HAS to wipe the Vanduul in the area out because that's the only way Orion will remain even remotely safe once we leave. And even if the Vanduul were drawn out of Tiber, we'd still have to go there to attack their production. The idea that Orion is our only objective and we should avoid fighting the Vanduul where possible is silly. It's not like a game of Axis and Allies, where you move a tank onto an unoccupied country and it's suddenly yours. Planting a flag doesn't make the ground yours. Orion is likely to be unpopulated by Vanduul and for all we know, so is Caliban. Sending our forces through there because Orion is our objective accomplishes nothing.


As far as your later posts, I find them more to my personal tastes and I've supported *similar* plans before. But it has a few weaknesses. The tribal nature of the Vanduul means that even if we attack the Tiber forces to "hold them" there, a different clan could attack the more mobile force. And then, THEY would be holding US. Meanwhile, the holding force in Tiber is suffering attrition while the Tiber Vanduul force doesn't really have to worry about that issue. Our entire holding force in Tiber could get wiped out without making any progress, waiting on the mobile force. This wouldn't just be a strategic blunder, it'd be a huge blow to morale and would cause many players to leave the operation. There's too much that can happen when you separate your forces by such a great distance, and it drastically would increase our logistical strain.

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #62
Started another thread on the Hammer/Anvil plan.
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
Envoy, USC
XO, USC Defense Force Training Command
Member, USC Interstellar Commerce
Member, USC Expeditionary Corps
Member, USC Department of Aerospace Engineering

Aurora LX (Traveller's Tales)
Anvil F7C-M (Ares' Gauntlet)
Anvil Carrack (Grey-Eyed Goddess)
Aegis Vanguard (Hero for Hire)
Anvil Crucible (Rustoff)

  • Hawkeye
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #63

Started another thread on the Hammer/Anvil plan.


I have looked around, but can´t locate it.

Where, repeat, where is that threat, the world wonders   :)
"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #64
Just put it up. I was writing it all this time. Sorry.
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
Envoy, USC
XO, USC Defense Force Training Command
Member, USC Interstellar Commerce
Member, USC Expeditionary Corps
Member, USC Department of Aerospace Engineering

Aurora LX (Traveller's Tales)
Anvil F7C-M (Ares' Gauntlet)
Anvil Carrack (Grey-Eyed Goddess)
Aegis Vanguard (Hero for Hire)
Anvil Crucible (Rustoff)

  • Hawkeye
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #65

Just put it up. I was writing it all this time. Sorry.


No problem. You just phrased your last post as if you had allready posted.

Anyway, I have just finished my first reading and will let the details sink in a bit now.
"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #66

No problem. You just phrased your last post as if you had allready posted.


Yeah, I realized that when I read your "and where is it?" post. Oops.
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
Envoy, USC
XO, USC Defense Force Training Command
Member, USC Interstellar Commerce
Member, USC Expeditionary Corps
Member, USC Department of Aerospace Engineering

Aurora LX (Traveller's Tales)
Anvil F7C-M (Ares' Gauntlet)
Anvil Carrack (Grey-Eyed Goddess)
Aegis Vanguard (Hero for Hire)
Anvil Crucible (Rustoff)

  • MattK101
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #67
This is one of those times where I dislike instancing, because then I'd be advocating for laying big, persistent minefields on the jump points the Vanduul would be using to get out of Tiber. Oh well

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #68

I have been thinking about tribal societies in SF and what I came up with was, that usually, those societies don´t unite at the first sign of trouble, only after one or two single clans are obliterated, they finally start to realize that the _entire_ society is in danger and start to organize a unified response.

If we beat one or two smaller clans in Caliban, Vanguard and Orion, this will send a message to the other Vanduul clans.

If we hit Tiber first, I would expect the Vanduul to engage us by clan first, i.e. not as a unified force; and given the importance of The Grinder, I also expect some of the strongest Clans to be in Tiber (p.s. do we have any information about _more_ than on clan/tribe being in Tiber?)
I´d rather engage those strong clans one after the other, than engage and defeat a few small clans and have to face the unified strong clans later on.

6) I kinda doubt we could convince the Vanduul to come to us by jumping into Caliban and holding the Caliban - Nul jump point, because, as you say, Caliban is of no real importance.


I disagree on your analysis of the tribal system, seeing as Tiber appears to be the closest thing we have to a homeworld of the Vanduul, I doubt they would stream out clan by clan in defense of the area. If their territory is threatened, whether the unity is intentional or not, they are going to defend the area from opposing forces.

As a matter of fact, I am very sure it is all but guaranteed we are going to draw the clans attention no matter what route we take. I would rather face them in Caliban however, where they don't have the advantage of being so thoroughly entrenched, due to its lack of importance. And if we don't convince them to come to us, well, thats even better, their failure to respond will make everything easier for us.


In Orion, this just leaves the problem, that there are two _suspected_ jump points (according to our current map which, I might add, is likely horribly inacurate), we have no idea where those jump points are, so we can´t guard them, and even if we knew, we would have to divide our forces - and call me conservative, but dividing forces in the face of the enemy doesn´t sound like a viable strategy to me.

Note:
I agree that recon will probably change everything and all planning and theorycrafting will probably be moot, but, as a long-time WITP-AE/Aurora player,  I just love to do it :=)

while this is true, this is simply one of the risks that cannot be avoided, if we are indeed going after Orion (which is important as it is the key symbolism behind the movement), this is why we need to get to Orion and STAY THERE, that way we are playing defensively and entrenched instead of point guarding.

Note: The whole concept of point guarding seems like an unreliable tactic to me in the first place, with ambiguous boundaries, you could have masses of enemy ships being dumped right in the middle of your formations. The closest thing possible to defending jump points that would be even remotely viable in my opinion is having fleets organized far out from the bubble with quantum entangled (Chris, make these a thing please) data probes, that way when the fleet drops off we can engage it while they attempt to reform, even then, if more ships arrive that could screw everything up.

Also, your probably right about the plan formulating, but even if our plans are innaccurate, the general concepts aren't and can probably be adapted, and I like theory craft too  :D


Fortify Orion? How do you plan on fortifying a solar system? We're not going to be getting minerals and building Photon Cannons and Pylons. We aren't gonna be digging trenches. "Fortifying" a system would mean building up its economy, population, and defense force. This would take years, not hours.

We aren't trying to fortify the entire system, all we need to do is concentrate our defenses around our planet, they can't just ignore our presence there. And judging by the reports regarding Orion, they already have orbital defenses in place, instead of going boom boom destroy, we need to capture these using the main fleet as a distraction rather than the main event, we need to stir up something big that will get the Vanduuls attention. I.E. and assault on Caliban and the outer Orion sectors if Caliban fails to draw enough attention, either way the point is to pull forces off of the human world Orion enough that a smaller fleet can break in and take control of several key facilities in orbit and along the ground. Then, either the Orion Vanduul will be forced into a retreat in which we can pursue them and sandwich them between the orbital defenses and the fleet. Or, they can hold their ground and the main fleet can fight it out while the Shadow Fleet captures more and more places.

Once we win that its a matter of tugging in all of our resources we stored for this operation in system and setting up additional defenses in an attempt to outlast them in a defensive battle, which I think would be much easier than assaulting a well entrenched Tiber. Vanguard is a question mark, regarding how or if we should divide the fleet to deal with it.

My theory is that we should defend the planet only for the same reason siege defenders only defended the castle, even when assaulted from all sides, we have "walls", and are expecting it. If we defend the planet its going to be a lot harder to flank due to the fact we are carpeting it and we are entrenched. Also, I think defending the planet will allow us to concentrate our forces rather than be spread out in void combat.

  • Hawkeye
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #69

I disagree on your analysis of the tribal system, seeing as Tiber appears to be the closest thing we have to a homeworld of the Vanduul, I doubt they would stream out clan by clan in defense of the area. If their territory is threatened, whether the unity is intentional or not, they are going to defend the area from opposing forces.

As a matter of fact, I am very sure it is all but guaranteed we are going to draw the clans attention no matter what route we take. I would rather face them in Caliban however, where they don't have the advantage of being so thoroughly entrenched, due to its lack of importance. And if we don't convince them to come to us, well, thats even better, their failure to respond will make everything easier for us.


I guess we have to wait for some recon in Tiber.
Personally, I kind of doubt there is more than one clan in Tiber as some form of permanent garrison, given the Vanduul history of fighting each other.
If this is true, as I said, I expect the strongest clan to have "posession" of such a valuable system and I´d like to fight that clan on his own, rather than give him time to get in _other_ clans due to a "threat to the race"

I agree that we will have to face a more or less united Vanduul fleet sooner or later, I´d just prefer to do this _after_ we have taken care of the (or one of the) strongest clans already, if at all possible.


Note: The whole concept of point guarding seems like an unreliable tactic to me in the first place, with ambiguous boundaries, you could have masses of enemy ships being dumped right in the middle of your formations. The closest thing possible to defending jump points that would be even remotely viable in my opinion is having fleets organized far out from the bubble with quantum entangled (Chris, make these a thing please) data probes, that way when the fleet drops off we can engage it while they attempt to reform, even then, if more ships arrive that could screw everything up.


That is why I propose to guard the jump point at the _hostile_ side. There is no abigueous boundary, no danger of an enemy jumping into us, no nothing.
The _entry_ of a jump point is, as far as I know, a clearly defined point.

Of course, this tactic requires the enemy to come to us and expecting the enemy to do what you want is allways risky, but given the importance of Tiber and given the agressive nature of the Vanduul, I´d guess there to be a good chance they couldn´t ignore a strong UEE presence in Tiber.

And if they _do_ ignore our fleet in Tiber, we can allways go for the Grinder (which, IMO, is as important a target as Orion itself, especially their harvesters there) which is a target the Vanduul simply can not ignore.
One way or the other, we crush the Tiber fleet


Also, your probably right about the plan formulating, but even if our plans are innaccurate, the general concepts aren't and can probably be adapted, and I like theory craft too  :D


Yeah, I vaguely remember a saying along the line of: "Plans are useless, but planning is invaluable" or something to that effect.


We aren't trying to fortify the entire system, all we need to do is concentrate our defenses around our planet, they can't just ignore our presence there. And judging by the reports regarding Orion, they already have orbital defenses in place, instead of going boom boom destroy, we need to capture these using the main fleet as a distraction rather than the main event, we need to stir up something big that will get the Vanduuls attention. I.E. and assault on Caliban and the outer Orion sectors if Caliban fails to draw enough attention, either way the point is to pull forces off of the human world Orion enough that a smaller fleet can break in and take control of several key facilities in orbit and along the ground. Then, either the Orion Vanduul will be forced into a retreat in which we can pursue them and sandwich them between the orbital defenses and the fleet. Or, they can hold their ground and the main fleet can fight it out while the Shadow Fleet captures more and more places.

Once we win that its a matter of tugging in all of our resources we stored for this operation in system and setting up additional defenses in an attempt to outlast them in a defensive battle, which I think would be much easier than assaulting a well entrenched Tiber. Vanguard is a question mark, regarding how or if we should divide the fleet to deal with it.

My theory is that we should defend the planet only for the same reason siege defenders only defended the castle, even when assaulted from all sides, we have "walls", and are expecting it. If we defend the planet its going to be a lot harder to flank due to the fact we are carpeting it and we are entrenched. Also, I think defending the planet will allow us to concentrate our forces rather than be spread out in void combat.


So you want to hang around in Caliban or (preferably) in Orion and let the Vanduul concentrate forces until they are ready and then hit us with everything they have?
Or did I misunderstand you?

If not, then:

I really like the analogy of planets, asteroid belts and stuff in a system with the islands in the PTO of WW2.
So Armitage is heavily fortified and your fleet is in orbit, protecting it (let´s say Truk).
Then I, as the Vanduul commander just go around you and block the Orion - Caliban jump point (with some forces on the Caliban side, to give warning in case the UEE mounts a rescue mission, cutting you off from friendly space.
Now you sit over a planet with no industrial capacity, no way to get supplies or ammunition and no way out.
Basically, you have created a new Stalingrad.

And even if that doesn´t happen, what if the Vanduul _don´t_ show up at Orion (something I think is quite possible, given that Orion doesn´t seem to be of any significance to the Vanduul)? At least not during the 4 days, OPPF will last? What if they show up a few days after most Forkers have left?

If we managed to neutralize the Tiber fleet, whoever stays in Orion, has, together with some NPC help, at least a fighting chance of holding the system.
With the Tiber fleet intact after the majority leaves, it is massacer time, and it will not be humans doing the massacring, I´m afraid.

The point is:
If we give them time, they will drown us in numbers.
If we leave the initiative to them, they will outmaneuver us.

We have to hit fast and we have to hit hard!
"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #70

I really like the analogy of planets, asteroid belts and stuff in a system with the islands in the PTO of WW2.
So Armitage is heavily fortified and your fleet is in orbit, protecting it (let´s say Truk).
Then I, as the Vanduul commander just go around you and block the Orion - Caliban jump point (with some forces on the Caliban side, to give warning in case the UEE mounts a rescue mission, cutting you off from friendly space.
Now you sit over a planet with no industrial capacity, no way to get supplies or ammunition and no way out.
Basically, you have created a new Stalingrad.


Alternately, the Vanduul just need to sit outside of weapons range of Orion, and bombard the planet with c-fractional kinetic strikes. A rock moving at a good chunk of the speed of light will hurt, and they only need to get a few by.

Quote

The point is:
If we give them time, they will drown us in numbers.
If we leave the initiative to them, they will outmaneuver us.

We have to hit fast and we have to hit hard!


Agreed. Except I would say, "If we leave the initiative to them, they will outmaneuver us AND drown us in numbers."
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
Envoy, USC
XO, USC Defense Force Training Command
Member, USC Interstellar Commerce
Member, USC Expeditionary Corps
Member, USC Department of Aerospace Engineering

Aurora LX (Traveller's Tales)
Anvil F7C-M (Ares' Gauntlet)
Anvil Carrack (Grey-Eyed Goddess)
Aegis Vanguard (Hero for Hire)
Anvil Crucible (Rustoff)

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #71
Narwhal, a threat can't be totally neutralized if their navy is on the offensive. They can commit as many or few (and it would likely be few, given the lack of importance of Orion) units as they want, and their production and operations are left completely intact. When they see what is happening, they can just ramp up production at Tiber.

Hawkeye and Narwhal, we can't defend against or form a wall against them in any capacity. This is because it's their territory, and they know more jump routes than we do.

  • Hawkeye
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #72

Narwhal, a threat can't be totally neutralized if their navy is on the offensive. They can commit as many or few (and it would likely be few, given the lack of importance of Orion) units as they want, and their production and operations are left completely intact. When they see what is happening, they can just ramp up production at Tiber.

Hawkeye and Narwhal, we can't defend against or form a wall against them in any capacity. This is because it's their territory, and they know more jump routes than we do.


I agree on the "can´t defend a system in Vanduul space" part.

I am not advocating anything of that kind (or of "forming a wall" or something)
I am just saying, that putting our fleet on the Tiber side of the Garron - Tiber jump point will have a good probability of forcing the Vanduul to engage us at a place of our choosing where we have

-short supply lines
-a save avenue of retreat
-are able to concentrate our forces
-and it´s an easy plan: Everyone goes here!

Of course, as I said, this requires the Vanduul to act as I expect, but as I also said, I have a hard time imangining the Vanduul to ignore our fleet in Tiber, given Tiber is, as far as we know, of vital importance to them.

Now, if recon shows that the Tiber fleet is of a size we have no chance to defeat, then this won´t work, obviously, so that plan is scraped.


Hm, re-reading what I just typed, it starts to look a lot like the japanese´s plans to force a "Decisive Battle" upon the US pretty much throughout the war. Perhaps that plan _isn´t_ quite as good as I thought :)
"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #73
Heh. The fixation on the Vanduul fleet in Tiber is like a fusion of Mahan and Clausewitz.

I wonder, though, how large a jump point exit will be. I mean, sure, its large enough that a pirate can't camp the JPEx, but....what about a fleet? Furthermore, while conducting a jump point assault, what kinds of ships do you send in first?
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
Envoy, USC
XO, USC Defense Force Training Command
Member, USC Interstellar Commerce
Member, USC Expeditionary Corps
Member, USC Department of Aerospace Engineering

Aurora LX (Traveller's Tales)
Anvil F7C-M (Ares' Gauntlet)
Anvil Carrack (Grey-Eyed Goddess)
Aegis Vanguard (Hero for Hire)
Anvil Crucible (Rustoff)

Re: Alternate Invasion plan.
Reply #74
Attacking the Vanduul is also simply a plan doomed to failure, as per their increased knowledge of the jump points anyway, they will simply surround us and hammer us to pieces if we attempt to attack them, not really much else to it. This is why I advocated for the operation lasting for more than 4 days, as this is simply not enough time.

Knightcrawler, we don't know enough about the Vanduul to neutralize them at all, and I doubt we could if we wanted to. Its exactly because they know the jump points that we cannot attack them. Being on a planet at least gives us a chance to have some sort of a defensive advantage, a place to put supplies, and have various other goodies that assaulting Tiber could never afford us. Its going to turn into a Stalingrad situation anyway, I would rather have 300 orbital MAC's at my back when it does.