I don't know about Tiber. It just seems like a suicide mission. The UEE military couldn't take Tiber, so I doubt we would have a chance there. Although, that being said, I'm still up for going out in a blaze of glory.(speaking of which, anyone remember that Jon Bon Jovi song?)
I don't know about Tiber. It just seems like a suicide mission
More like some sort of freaking, hairy, fishy thing.
As has been discussed already, there are two main targets, Orion and Tiber.
Disagree. Orion is a primary objective. Tiber, and a Vandy construction ship, is a secondary objective. Besides, I wonder who will get that construction ship/technology. I doubt it will be the UEE.
While Orion is the primary _Objective_ that does not make it the only primary _target_.Taking Orion while the bulk of the Vanduul forces is still sitting in Tiber (or already on its way to Orion to hit us in the flank) is kind of stupid IMO.What good will it do to take Orion for an hour and then being crushed by a Vanduul counter attack?Wouldn´t it be much better to take out the main Vanduul force in the immediate area and _then_ take Orion with a chance to hold it for some length of time?If we want to have a chance to keep Orion longer than an hour or two, we will have to face the Vanduul main forces, no way around it.And what better time to do that, than when we are at our full strength and not spread out over several systems?
I'm still not convinced we can take Tiber. If we can't hold off the Vanduul from Tiber when they attack Orion, how could we take control of Tiber if we go in there on the offensive while they have the defensive position? We'll just get chewed up and be left with nothing to defend our other flanks let alone have enough to attack Orion with.Better to face the Vanduul main force in a defensive fight than an offensive one. The UEE couldn't take Tiber.
And attacking is always more difficult in normal circumstances, this will be with a loose command structure, organisations working independently, lone wolves doing who knows what, etc.
I had spent 30 minutes writing up another post to further support my side...However, Ogi posted right before me and I lost all my work when I refreshed the page...
Hi aFizzle,If you like you can have an opportunity to do both, at this point we think the operation will run over a weekend so plenty of time to try (And die:)) at many thingsWelcome aboard
Welcome aboard!We are now talking about running it over and entire weekend so you may get an opportunity to fly everything you have and crew
I have no real problem with trying for it, I've always seen Tiber as our "Blaze of glory" system. The comment was more that we should avoid it until we have as many of our other objectives complete as possible.I'm not going to give the whole article (those who are willing to can find it elsewhere fairly easily) but there was mention of self replicating fabrication robots with access to a near unlimited supply of raw material.
A self-replicating fabrication robot is pretty cool, but it's not all that advanced. I've kinda got an early version of one, called a RepRap. It's only partially self-replicating, though. Anyway, they may have that, but they don't necessarily have fuel for anything they produce through there, or explosive munitions - or most importantly - pilots. What I'm sensing here is that hunting down and destroying (or reprogramming) the last of these fabrication robots will be very important. Another thing about this is if the entire process is automated from start to finish, there is little chance Vanduul ships will be modified. Also, they can have self-replicating fabrication units, but that doesn't mean they're pumping out cutting-edge technology.
If we go in these Harvesters need to be our fist priority till they're gone, the capships fighters and whatnot in orbit can wait we have to be sure that there won't be an endless stream of reinforcements from planet side.And this assumes that we can even get to them, this sounds to me like justification for the normal enemy respawns, and with them on the ground they may well be inaccessible.
Take that RepRap scale it up big enough to qualify as "massive", make it mobile (I think, it's implied but not stated), and set it loose on a planet covered with shipwrecks from at least couple decades of near continuous battles (so yes there's fuel and munitions in excess). The only real limitation is the pilots available, but while the planet may not be covered in cities it's still a planet, they won't be running out of bodies all that soon.If we go in these Harvesters need to be our fist priority till they're gone, the capships fighters and whatnot in orbit can wait we have to be sure that there won't be an endless stream of reinforcements from planet side.And this assumes that we can even get to them, this sounds to me like justification for the normal enemy respawns, and with them on the ground they may well be inaccessible.
@OgiI don't see all these jump lines you mention.If you attack through the Garron-Tiber Route, once on Tiber you have 3 possible vectors for Vanduul reinforcements (which are unlikely since the majority of the predominant Vanduul Horde in the sector is most likely here): Virgil, Vendetta and Orion. The first two would be cut off from the Vanduul jump network (at least if we go by our current map), and most likely get supplied from Tiber itself, meaning that they are in weak position and in case they do decide to join the Vanduul forces on our attack path they'll be leaving both systems rather undefended. Orion is not garrisoned by the Vanduul, so we shouldn't be bothered by enemies coming through it's jump lane, at least not at first.If you attack through the Nul-Caliban-Orion Route you'll be exposing yourself to attacks from Vanguard on Caliban and both Vanguard and Tiber on Orion... plus any possible unknown systems that link Orion to the Vanduul network (presumably two more).All in all, I'd say the Nul-Caliban-Orion route poses a higher threat because we won't be engaging the main enemy force, meaning they are free to maneuver to flank us at any time, plus we'll have to take care of one extra system in order to ensure our supply chain is safe.
Take that RepRap scale it up big enough to qualify as "massive", make it mobile (I think, it's implied but not stated).
If we go in these Harvesters need to be our fist priority till they're gone, the capships fighters and whatnot in orbit can wait we have to be sure that there won't be an endless stream of reinforcements from planet side.
Note: Its critical to know that the Vanduul and UEE are probably going to have human commanders from the design team, at the very least its been hinted at.Regarding an attack on Tiber as cutting off the head of a snake, I don't really think that that is an applicable term when it comes right down to it. Assuming we could WIN at Tiber (which is looking like long odds to me) it would be more akin to cutting off the head of a cockroach. The Vanduul are a survivable race, in fact its my bet that their disunity is the only thing stopping them from being unstoppable, they make whole colonies disappear using a single clan for goodness sake. While it would harm their ability to react in the region and they would no longer have a unified fleet, causing the multiple clans that inhabit the area to scatter is bad news waiting to happen. I doubt we would get a unified response from them after that point in the area, however, those large population centers in need of feeding will need plenty of new resources, and verge colonies are ripe targets.
If Orion is attacked, due to the scattered nature of the Vanduul, I find it difficult to believe they would move their military forces as a unified dedicated force into human space. The very strategic value of the Orion system to for the Vanduul is questionable at best. With the only thing going for it being its proximity to Tiber now that all the human colonies have long since vanished (or lost contact, but I doubt Vanduul would do such a thing as spare them).
This is why in my opinion the first thing that needs to go down, is we need to have a pre-pitchfork. In which we gather a large fleet and sweep the Nul system. This way we can establish a better forward operating base with less bureaucracy to wade through. And from Nul we could be stockpiling months in advance before the actual attack.While this may draw attention, this is actually exactly what I want to happen. Since we are going to be on an offensive battle, Caliban seems like the best option we have to make an offensive in. It is relatively undefended, being a mere pass-through point. Therefore, even if they do catch us early and unify against us (again, clan structure, unlikely) they won't have anywhere near the amount of defensive force as Tiber or even Orion have set up, that way the playing field is a little closer to level. And you guys have brought something else to my attention, it is definetely a good idea to be attacking in raids in various systems along the front, just to remind the Vanduul of the lingering possibility that the attack might come from another direction as well as to gather intel. Again, make it look like our focus is on Caliban, which in a way it will be.
thinking that the force that holds them at Tiber will be codenamed shield, while the the the main force will be called sword.
And I have to say I like your idea about instead of Sword fortifying Orion, they strike Tiber from behind, could cause a brief disarray in their formation (turning to face the larger force), for the main force to (hopefully) take down the engines of the kingship and destroy some of their forces.
as for strategy games... total war, civilization and sins of a solar empire ftw!I have one war history book but I have read it over and over again, (Carl von Clausewitz "On War")
and I agree that all multi crew ships should go with a full compliment, but from what I see from the current numbers on the google doc, we have way more ships than actual players so I am going to guess we will have to fill the crew with AI, which brings me to the conclusion that we are all going to have to work as a team to acquire the funds for this assault!
Hopefully this minor assault on Tiber will buy time to fortify Orion.
I just find it hard to believe that the UEEN can't take Tiber with organized battle fleets, but we can. Furthermore, I see no reason to take on the enemy's strongest point in a battle of annihilation, when we can bypass it and wear it down (from two different directions!) while still maintaining essentially secure supply lines.Again, I'm thinking Rabaul from World War II. The US didn't go after Rabaul in a battle of annihilation; they captured surrounding islands, built airfields and sub bases, and cut Rabaul off. Attrition, rather than annihilation.I see no need to crush the Vanduul fleet in Tiber, when Tiber is not our objective: Orion is. Sure, keep the pressure up on Tiber, but do so via raids. Take out Vandy logistical ships, so all that Bacon in Tiber can't move out of Tiber.
Started another thread on the Hammer/Anvil plan.
Just put it up. I was writing it all this time. Sorry.
No problem. You just phrased your last post as if you had allready posted.
I have been thinking about tribal societies in SF and what I came up with was, that usually, those societies don´t unite at the first sign of trouble, only after one or two single clans are obliterated, they finally start to realize that the _entire_ society is in danger and start to organize a unified response.If we beat one or two smaller clans in Caliban, Vanguard and Orion, this will send a message to the other Vanduul clans.If we hit Tiber first, I would expect the Vanduul to engage us by clan first, i.e. not as a unified force; and given the importance of The Grinder, I also expect some of the strongest Clans to be in Tiber (p.s. do we have any information about _more_ than on clan/tribe being in Tiber?)I´d rather engage those strong clans one after the other, than engage and defeat a few small clans and have to face the unified strong clans later on.6) I kinda doubt we could convince the Vanduul to come to us by jumping into Caliban and holding the Caliban - Nul jump point, because, as you say, Caliban is of no real importance.
In Orion, this just leaves the problem, that there are two _suspected_ jump points (according to our current map which, I might add, is likely horribly inacurate), we have no idea where those jump points are, so we can´t guard them, and even if we knew, we would have to divide our forces - and call me conservative, but dividing forces in the face of the enemy doesn´t sound like a viable strategy to me.Note:I agree that recon will probably change everything and all planning and theorycrafting will probably be moot, but, as a long-time WITP-AE/Aurora player, I just love to do it :=)
Fortify Orion? How do you plan on fortifying a solar system? We're not going to be getting minerals and building Photon Cannons and Pylons. We aren't gonna be digging trenches. "Fortifying" a system would mean building up its economy, population, and defense force. This would take years, not hours.
I disagree on your analysis of the tribal system, seeing as Tiber appears to be the closest thing we have to a homeworld of the Vanduul, I doubt they would stream out clan by clan in defense of the area. If their territory is threatened, whether the unity is intentional or not, they are going to defend the area from opposing forces.As a matter of fact, I am very sure it is all but guaranteed we are going to draw the clans attention no matter what route we take. I would rather face them in Caliban however, where they don't have the advantage of being so thoroughly entrenched, due to its lack of importance. And if we don't convince them to come to us, well, thats even better, their failure to respond will make everything easier for us.
Note: The whole concept of point guarding seems like an unreliable tactic to me in the first place, with ambiguous boundaries, you could have masses of enemy ships being dumped right in the middle of your formations. The closest thing possible to defending jump points that would be even remotely viable in my opinion is having fleets organized far out from the bubble with quantum entangled (Chris, make these a thing please) data probes, that way when the fleet drops off we can engage it while they attempt to reform, even then, if more ships arrive that could screw everything up.
Also, your probably right about the plan formulating, but even if our plans are innaccurate, the general concepts aren't and can probably be adapted, and I like theory craft too
We aren't trying to fortify the entire system, all we need to do is concentrate our defenses around our planet, they can't just ignore our presence there. And judging by the reports regarding Orion, they already have orbital defenses in place, instead of going boom boom destroy, we need to capture these using the main fleet as a distraction rather than the main event, we need to stir up something big that will get the Vanduuls attention. I.E. and assault on Caliban and the outer Orion sectors if Caliban fails to draw enough attention, either way the point is to pull forces off of the human world Orion enough that a smaller fleet can break in and take control of several key facilities in orbit and along the ground. Then, either the Orion Vanduul will be forced into a retreat in which we can pursue them and sandwich them between the orbital defenses and the fleet. Or, they can hold their ground and the main fleet can fight it out while the Shadow Fleet captures more and more places. Once we win that its a matter of tugging in all of our resources we stored for this operation in system and setting up additional defenses in an attempt to outlast them in a defensive battle, which I think would be much easier than assaulting a well entrenched Tiber. Vanguard is a question mark, regarding how or if we should divide the fleet to deal with it.My theory is that we should defend the planet only for the same reason siege defenders only defended the castle, even when assaulted from all sides, we have "walls", and are expecting it. If we defend the planet its going to be a lot harder to flank due to the fact we are carpeting it and we are entrenched. Also, I think defending the planet will allow us to concentrate our forces rather than be spread out in void combat.
I really like the analogy of planets, asteroid belts and stuff in a system with the islands in the PTO of WW2. So Armitage is heavily fortified and your fleet is in orbit, protecting it (let´s say Truk).Then I, as the Vanduul commander just go around you and block the Orion - Caliban jump point (with some forces on the Caliban side, to give warning in case the UEE mounts a rescue mission, cutting you off from friendly space. Now you sit over a planet with no industrial capacity, no way to get supplies or ammunition and no way out.Basically, you have created a new Stalingrad.
The point is:If we give them time, they will drown us in numbers.If we leave the initiative to them, they will outmaneuver us.We have to hit fast and we have to hit hard!
Narwhal, a threat can't be totally neutralized if their navy is on the offensive. They can commit as many or few (and it would likely be few, given the lack of importance of Orion) units as they want, and their production and operations are left completely intact. When they see what is happening, they can just ramp up production at Tiber.Hawkeye and Narwhal, we can't defend against or form a wall against them in any capacity. This is because it's their territory, and they know more jump routes than we do.
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