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Topic: Operation Preparation Proposal (Read 3234 times) previous topic - next topic

Operation Preparation Proposal
I have been reading the proposed invasion strategy threads with great interest, but while most of them seem to make sense based on the information we currently know. I However also noticed most of them seemed to boil down to "We invade system X, launching from staging area Y and then look around to see what is in the next system" or a bit the other way around.

And that is going to get us killed.

And not because the proposed staging systems are necessarily bad proposals and neither are the proposed target systems, but because it all seems very short term planned and leave a lot of unknowns.

But the good thing is.... We have lots and lots of time to correct that, which is why I propose the following three operations:

Scouting & Recon
Training exercises
Stockpiling supplies

1.   Scouting and recon operations
I saw that there was already a scout/recon thread. That is good because we will need them beforehand. As soon as the Beta begins we should start scouting the systems. For the following purposes:

A. we need to know the terrain
Before there is any invasion attempt, we should already scouted out the systems as much as possible, know as many planets, jump points, enemy concentrations, safe zones and whatever other information possible. We should know the area better than the Vanduul themselves.

The unknown Ba'nu planet especially, is there a jump point connection to the rest of Ba'nu space? Is it a safe zone? Can we retreat to it?  Can we open another front from it? Do the Vanduul visit that system?

Are there nebula's and asteroid belts? Can we hide in them and set up supplies? In short we preferably need to know all of the terrain in advance. Not just start looking around when the invasion is underway (when it is underway we should look around to see if variables have changed).



B. we need to know the enemy.
A second scouting objective would be to identify as many Vanduul ships as possible. Carriers, Warships, squadrons. But also possible civilian movements, settled planets, their homeworld if possible. Their infrastructure and shipyards.

It would also be interesting to know how these ships move around, if a Vanduul carrier is spotted in one system, does it stay there? Does it move all over the sectors? Are there patterns? In short we need a huge spreadsheet and maps with enemy ships and movements on it. This will be invaluable during the first hours of the invasion and will save our lives after the opening stages.



C. we need to know response times
Here in Europe (and I recon in Asia and Alaska too) we have on occasion a Russian bomber entering our airspace, probably checking out the skies, intercept times and such. We should do the same enter Vanduul space and see how they respond. Are they guarding or patrolling the jump points? How long does it take for them to intercept? Do they consider all ships a threat or do they leave single ships alone if unprovoked? Also of prime interest: Are they actually coordinated? If we enter Vanduul space in force do they respond as a single cohesive or are they fractured. Lore suggests the latter, however will gameplay also be so?



2.   Training exercises
And not only Vanduul fighting tactics, though that is a priority I'm actually hoping this will already be possible with the dogfighting module or by simply hanging around near Vanduul systems and waiting for Vanduul attacks.

But perhaps more importantly we should have fleet exercises. Sailor67 put forth an interesting communication proposal and we should test and train such things to see what works and what not. If we can coordinate a fleet of players in a system or multi system operation. This might be done in UEE space, pirate systems for combat practice and even in Vanduul space to also achieve scout and recon goals.



3.   Stockpiling supplies
This might seem the least glamorous operation, but might prove to be the most important.  We know that the economy will not be limitless stocks at shops and factories. So we might need a (group) of quartermaster(s) to keep track of building stockpiles of torpedo's, missiles, fuel and whatever supplies we might need. So we do not run out of them in the opening hours of the operation.

So if possible this also should be started early in the beta, if only for the purpose to see if and how we can actually store large quantities. And to be sure that we do not discover a week before the operation that all the torpedo's are sold out.



Then and only then, if we know and done a lot of the stuff above, we should plan the actual invasion strategy... that is not to say one should stop brainstorming about it now of course but we should not commit to a strategy before we have the necessary intell, experience and supplies

Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #1

1.   Scouting and recon operations
I saw that there was already a scout/recon thread. That is good because we will need them beforehand. As soon as the Beta begins we should start scouting the systems. For the following purposes:

A. we need to know the terrain
Before there is any invasion attempt, we should already scouted out the systems as much as possible, know as many planets, jump points, enemy concentrations, safe zones and whatever other information possible. We should know the area better than the Vanduul themselves.

The unknown Ba'nu planet especially, is there a jump point connection to the rest of Ba'nu space? Is it a safe zone? Can we retreat to it?  Can we open another front from it? Do the Vanduul visit that system?


Are there nebula's and asteroid belts? Can we hide in them and set up supplies? In short we preferably need to know all of the terrain in advance. Not just start looking around when the invasion is underway (when it is underway we should look around to see if variables have changed).


That right there is what I've assigned myself as my first priority when the PU goes up with a focus on the part in bold. Aside from that I would strongly agree that we need as much prep work and training in as possible.

  • Jonais
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #2
I don't think anyone is saying that we shouldn't prep and scout. Most of these battle plans are just that, battle plans. They're for V-Day and it's pretty much assumed all the prep work has already been done. There are a lot of gaps to fill in our information and that will happen as it becomes available. That's why most of them read Attack X from Y, because that's all the information we have...
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #3
Only seems reasonable to do our home-work, from intel to supply gathering.

I'm in, where do you propose we start?
It's a penguin... with a gun. I'd run if I were you.

Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #4

I don't think anyone is saying that we shouldn't prep and scout. Most of these battle plans are just that, battle plans. They're for V-Day and it's pretty much assumed all the prep work has already been done. There are a lot of gaps to fill in our information and that will happen as it becomes available. That's why most of them read Attack X from Y, because that's all the information we have...


I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've agreed with you entirely.
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  • Jonais
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #5

I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've agreed with you entirely.


lol
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  • Benjamin the Rogue
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #6
It's because that's the case. I don't know why people have an issue with the lack of information in the general plans people have laid out. They're at this point simply outlines meant to be tweaked as we gain more information. Because we're awfully short on any. Every single one of them will no doubt have to change radically as we gain new information on some of the very basic fundamentals of the game.

As long as people keep that in mind, this whole planning and strategizing thing can be a pretty fun way to pass the time. No one should be getting too worked up over it, or overly critical of each other.

  • Jonais
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #7
That's why I made mine so simple :)
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #8
I couldn't see this covered in any of the previous posts, if it is can you plz post the link as I'd be keen to read the discussion.

On the concept of stockpiling munitions for the cause, I recall seeing a vid where CR gave an example where a player runs a missile manufacturer and had their supply lines cut by pirates and it drove the price of missiles up as supply became limited (Can't find the link unfortunately).

The thought here is would it be prudent to extend our pre operation efforts to try and get in contact with one or two player organisations who are looking to be munitions manufacturers and set up a deal to get a cheaper rate on munitions. They get a contract of large quantities of munitions, we get cheaper pricing and everyone is better off.

Additionally to ensure that they have adequate supply lines to produce the quantity we require we can offer our spare forces who aren't dedicated to scouting or cap ship salvage prior to OPPF V-Day to protect their supply lines. I know that if I was to try and derail OPPF I'd be hitting things such as that to hamper their supplies and make them cost more so drain poor forkers money.

What I like about this concept is that it is win - win for all involved, it provides an avenue of engagement amongst the forkers in the lead-up to V-Day, provides income for those forkers on escort duty, gives us a steady flow of supplies and helps out the allied organisations by building up their company.

Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #9
I originally thought about just buying from the cheap systems inside the core of the UEE territory...

But you bring in something interesting Night Wrath, buying from players could be cheaper and more enjoyable. Still, one thing worries me, will the player-owned nodes be available during beta? At which point? Perhaps it's worth a question to the Wingman.
It's a penguin... with a gun. I'd run if I were you.

Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #10
Posted the question, let's see if it gets and answer.

  • JackDaniels
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #11

That's why I made mine so simple :)


lol whats funny I thought mine was the most simple.... but if anything I still wanted to get the prep-work planned before the actual assault. I have seen from each different plan's and proposals similar things, but as for me mine was targeted for testing and attempts to fill in the rest of the gap's.

I ain't denouncing your's because yeah it was a very simple, lol.

I originally thought about just buying from the cheap systems inside the core of the UEE territory...

But you bring in something interesting Night Wrath, buying from players could be cheaper and more enjoyable. Still, one thing worries me, will the player-owned nodes be available during beta? At which point? Perhaps it's worth a question to the Wingman.


After the number of economy games that I have played there is always a high cost for first few run's for the smaller volumes. Also after being in a family that actually manufactures a special garage floor mat, we even found that our cost's was always high the first set of run's till we could get things going properly after getting average number of product run's per a day with what resources we had vs. cost.

I personally estimate that first player run materials could turn out to be a little costly compared to any other local prices.


Any who back to the Proposal.....
Thank you for posting up the proposal Marcus. I knew I  was forgetting to have something posted along these lines because we was talking about them for a long while in the shoutbox when sailor was online.

As for the supply lines I remember we talked about doing a massive stockpiling on each player personally and I was going to try and pass out hauling contracts to those in The Convoy™ for any one here in Pitchfork that needs things moved from A to B or help in moving additional materials for the supplies.

Personally I believe that we may have to try and figure out a way if we can to make use of the supplies as a donation based because we are all throwing our own ships into the mix but we can only carry so much ammo with us into combat but then we need the supplies for re-arming while out on missions.

So Primarily we did discuss this but never put it down to text. Thank you  for your proposal this will help get a jump start on the Prep stage like you have presented here.
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  • Turban
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #12
We should be carefull with the stockpilling of stuff... we might attract other players/pirates who would see an opportunity to attack and seize everything... Count me in for escort duty during that phase !

  • Benjamin the Rogue
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #13
After having lurked through quite a lot of open forums mentioning OPPF, Turban is right about us wanting to have some PvPers ready on the back end to support our support fleets.

  • Turban
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #14
Don't know if it was mention before, but since we are on the idea of others looking at us, maybe we should make the forums more private no? Because anyone can read our stuff at the moment I think :P

Same for the shoutbox :)

  • Benjamin the Rogue
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #15
No. We're going to remain an open community. This event is community driven, and we the player base is what's going to be what makes it happen. The moment we start closing the doors to people in any way, it stops being that.

We're building an excellent community here in Operation Pitchfork where people watch out for each other, one that I think will continue on in the form of many new friendships established by the events leading up to and the operation itself.

There will also other groups who will seek to profit from this event, and I don't hold it against them that they wish to do so, it's a free 'verse after all. We just have to plan accordingly. Besides, we've got some major PvP organizations siding with us, so I'm sure we'll be in good hands during the event. Maybe seeing all of this will have the opposite reaction of what you fear, and they may realize how big it is, and a few might join up, and maybe a few others will decide it'd be easier to attack Terra instead of us.

There are also going to be griefers who think they have enough power to ruin this event, but I think it's going to be too huge for any of them to pull that off. This is already a pretty big event, and we have an entire year to prepare.

  • Turban
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #16
Ok :)
I was just worried about the spying, but I got your point :)

We 'll just stand strong and it's gonna be ok :)

Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #17
Warning Large wall of text


and it's pretty much assumed all the prep work has already been done.


Which is why we also should think, plan and build up our organisation to actually do that  ;) Nevertheless, as I stated: brainstorming about invasion possibilities is not bad, people should keep doing that, because that will certainly help when drawing the actual operation plans. And because there are always some unknowns it is not bad to somewhat speculate (hell in the scout proposals far below I'll do plenty speculation of my own).


It's because that's the case. I don't know why people have an issue with the lack of information in the general plans people have laid out. .....

As long as people keep that in mind, this whole planning and strategizing thing can be a pretty fun way to pass the time. No one should be getting too worked up over it, or overly critical of each other.


An issue is a bit of a strong word, my point is simply that when building a house, one should also draw up a building plan, arrange for materials and personnel to be available, lay a foundation and research the hell out of all those aspects first before actually planning the super awesome housewarming party that people will talk about for years.

In other words we need to do a lot of groundwork and preplanning on which the actual operation planning is going to depend. Because well... the current situation is that we actually don't know a lot. Therefore we should explore and investigate, so that when we plan the invasion we actually have a good idea as to why we invade a particular system instead of another, why we have certain operational goals, why we need a particular number of assets or supplies and why then a particular staging ground is suitable or not.

So my proposal is to also start thinking about all we have to do before the actual invasion planning and about the steps of building the foundation for said invasion and think them through and through. That is not so much as to criticize the ideas behind current proposals, though the actual problem with most of them is that it is in fact almost impossible to critically review them because they lack important information needed to make estimates about what we will encounter, what supplies we need and thus how we should prepare...



Only seems reasonable to do our home-work, from intel to supply gathering.

I'm in, where do you propose we start?


Well in general I think we need an overall plan/vision, like a plan of action (don't know if that translated well into english) or research proposal which outlines our general direction. And covers most of our bases. This document should not be set in stone, but like a living document that might change and be adapted as time goes by and new information reaches us.

Specifically we should organize our foundation and start making subplans and subgoals for them and subsequently suboperations. Before I mentioned 3 aspects: 1. Scouting; 2. Training and 3. Stockpiling (and perhaps we need even more) to start preparing... These three aspects would need to be organized, thought out and then executed.

Let's take scouting as an example, we should look at our member base who likes to do work in this and try to get it organized. THat will also need some thinking in what should actually be done.

So an example of Possible scouting operations and considerations I have thought up the following: The moment the PU beta starts we should consider at least two main scouting goals, a very general one and a very specific one.

1.   Exploring Vanduul space and all possible ways in and out

As I stated before we need to know the terrain, enemy numbers and if possible how they react. This operation would be very much trial and error and long term. It might be very easy to enter Vanduul space, it might be very hard or something in between maybe depending on different circumstances.

We simply don't know (although it is my estimate that CIG wouldn't make so much Vanduul systems if they were almost impossible to enter) whatever the case it must be figured out anyway. The operation being experimental and explorative in nature, I would suggest trying out different tactics and strengths. From sending in lone ships like 315p's or stealth-hornets, smaller scout groups's with dedicated ships loaded with sensor equipment and perhaps some escort fighters to perhaps even an expeditionary flotilla. Or whatever else we can think of, this would of course also depend on what assets we will be able to field.

The most important asset however will be a simple pen and paper or other data collectors for making notes, an email address or forum to submit reports and an excel sheet to collect information.

At first I would suggest simply flying around and observe, trying out the waters so to speak and then seek out specific goals and targets to map, observe and catalogue. It would for example be interesting to figure out moving patterns of Vanduul (capital) ships and patrols of fighters. And that's where the long term comes in.... If possible I would continue this operation well until and perhaps even during the operation to keep reporting Vanduul fleet movements and possibly act as early warning.

What may also be of interest is exploring the possibilities of infiltrating the Vanduul... From the lore we know that there are some contacts between Vanduul and Humans and Ba'nu, so there might be some possibilities there.

And there are possibly many more leads to pursue scouting and intelligence gathering.

2.   Finding the Ba'nu world

It's location on current maps is interesting, it can be an asset so we should try to find it. I currently thought up 4 or 5 options to possibly explore, with different levels of probability (not necessarily in order)

A.   Through Vanduul space: this might be the most obvious one as the planet seems to be within Vanduul territory. However this might also be the most dangerous option to explore as we currently don't know how safe it would be to explore Vanduul space. As I already propose we explore Vanduul space anyway this might be an additional goal. Scouts might find the jump point on their own or perhaps by observing Ba'nu ships in Vanduul space.

B.   Through Ba'nu space: This also seems like an obvious possibility, though more deceptively so. We might assume that there is relative easy access between the Ba'nu worlds including this one. However it is unknown if that also means a straight jump point or other connections (or if the Vanduul simply give them a right of free passage (if that is the case we should explore the possibility of getting Ba'nu ships and explore the possibilities of getting Ba'nu transponders). Nevertheless it should be worthwhile to see if we can discover the Ba'nu way of reaching that system. Either by exploring the Ba'nu systems or tailing Ba'nu ships.

C.   Through another as of yet unknown jump possibility in a 'geographical' sense: The current assumed location of the Ba'nu planets raises a lot of questions. Though this might just be deceptive due to the way current maps are made, I am not sure if the current maps are actually geographically or schematically (think of metro maps) made. In reality the distance between the Ba'nu worlds might actually be relatively close or perhaps some jump connections are just very long. Again tailing Ba'nu ships might reveal alternative routes or we might discover jump points to the Ba'nu world in other systems.

D.   Through another as of yet unknown jump possibility in a technological sense: The two distant Ba'nu world might also indicate that the Ba'nu have alternative traveling or jump solutions. Though this is pure speculation on my part, we should see if Ba'nu traveling technology differs.

E.   It might just be possible to buy this information from the Ba'nu tourism and trading information kiosk.

F.   ? Any other possible options that I have not yet imagined.

Now to perform this task we need a scouting/exploring/intelligence gathering operation. So we need people and ships and actually organise it...


I couldn't see this covered in any of the previous posts, if it is can you plz post the link as I'd be keen to read the discussion.

On the concept of stockpiling munitions for the cause, I recall seeing a vid where CR gave an example where a player runs a missile manufacturer and had their supply lines cut by pirates and it drove the price of missiles up as supply became limited (Can't find the link unfortunately).

The thought here is would it be prudent to extend our pre operation efforts to try and get in contact with one or two player organisations who are looking to be munitions manufacturers and set up a deal to get a cheaper rate on munitions. They get a contract of large quantities of munitions, we get cheaper pricing and everyone is better off.

Additionally to ensure that they have adequate supply lines to produce the quantity we require we can offer our spare forces who aren't dedicated to scouting or cap ship salvage prior to OPPF V-Day to protect their supply lines. I know that if I was to try and derail OPPF I'd be hitting things such as that to hamper their supplies and make them cost more so drain poor forkers money.

What I like about this concept is that it is win - win for all involved, it provides an avenue of engagement amongst the forkers in the lead-up to V-Day, provides income for those forkers on escort duty, gives us a steady flow of supplies and helps out the allied organisations by building up their company.




lol whats funny I thought mine was the most simple.... but if anything I still wanted to get the prep-work planned before the actual assault. I have seen from each different plan's and proposals similar things, but as for me mine was targeted for testing and attempts to fill in the rest of the gap's.

I ain't denouncing your's because yeah it was a very simple, lol.
After the number of economy games that I have played there is always a high cost for first few run's for the smaller volumes. Also after being in a family that actually manufactures a special garage floor mat, we even found that our cost's was always high the first set of run's till we could get things going properly after getting average number of product run's per a day with what resources we had vs. cost.

I personally estimate that first player run materials could turn out to be a little costly compared to any other local prices.


Any who back to the Proposal.....
Thank you for posting up the proposal Marcus. I knew I  was forgetting to have something posted along these lines because we was talking about them for a long while in the shoutbox when sailor was online.

As for the supply lines I remember we talked about doing a massive stockpiling on each player personally and I was going to try and pass out hauling contracts to those in The Convoy™ for any one here in Pitchfork that needs things moved from A to B or help in moving additional materials for the supplies.

Personally I believe that we may have to try and figure out a way if we can to make use of the supplies as a donation based because we are all throwing our own ships into the mix but we can only carry so much ammo with us into combat but then we need the supplies for re-arming while out on missions.

So Primarily we did discuss this but never put it down to text. Thank you  for your proposal this will help get a jump start on the Prep stage like you have presented here.



We should be carefull with the stockpilling of stuff... we might attract other players/pirates who would see an opportunity to attack and seize everything... Count me in for escort duty during that phase !


All excellent ideas, suggestions and considerations :D Exactly the sort of thing we need to think about.

Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #18
I truly think that finding jump-points won't be that easy... even with lots of people flying around...

When you consider that you can actually fly from Earth to Pluto in real-time...
It's a penguin... with a gun. I'd run if I were you.

  • Harker
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #19
With the vast numbers we're pulling together, I think there'll be a lot of stuff being discovered faster than normal.

  • Benjamin the Rogue
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #20
Our "scouting" missions into Vanduul space is going to get confused with an actual invasion by everyone else!

  • MattK101
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #21
Recon in force. Gives us options if we find some Vanduul weak point. We might be able to capitalize right away.

  • Ratu
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Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #22
I like the idea of a Steiner Recon Company. For those of you who aren't Battletech fans, that means a company of our most outrageously large, slow and powerful ships scouting by force and surviving by sheer dumb luck, armour and guns.

Re: Operation Preparation Proposal
Reply #23

I truly think that finding jump-points won't be that easy... even with lots of people flying around...

When you consider that you can actually fly from Earth to Pluto in real-time...



With the vast numbers we're pulling together, I think there'll be a lot of stuff being discovered faster than normal.


Both statements have a reasonable chance to be true and it is another reason to plan and start early, so we might be able to devise tactics for it.


Our "scouting" missions into Vanduul space is going to get confused with an actual invasion by everyone else!



Recon in force. Gives us options if we find some Vanduul weak point. We might be able to capitalize right away.



I like the idea of a Steiner Recon Company. For those of you who aren't Battletech fans, that means a company of our most outrageously large, slow and powerful ships scouting by force and surviving by sheer dumb luck, armour and guns.


Which is an interesting tactic to try out (amongst other options) as to also test Vanduul strengths, weakpoints and general response.... Although I would opt to first do smaller low profile scout missions first. Because I would really like to know if there would be inter system movements of Vanduul war assets as a response to a major incursion and for that you have to know their 'normal' location and movements