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Topic: Justin111111's Proposal (Read 1853 times) previous topic - next topic

Justin111111's Proposal
The short and sweet of it is that we need an ACCOMPLISH-ABLE objective. It has to be feasible with the possibilities of either the Vanduul being scattered and clannish (like in the lore), or the possibility that any one system will be met with the Vanduul race as a whole (Simple AI programming).

That means:
1. We have to actually be able to take it. Period. If the UEE put such a strong garrison on Garron, on Tiber there must be a reciprocal garrison for the Vanduul. Even with our numbers, we don't have that kind of strength.

2. WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO HOLD IT. Attacking systems with multiple Vanduul held jump points will allow them to be able to surround us. In short we get raped.

3. We have Pitchforkers from all walks of life rallying to our banner. Do you think that the UEE will just standby while a horde of pirates swarm through their systems? We will need to target a system that has both neutral and UEE systems bordering it.

Instead of turning this into a glorious final charge of the light brigade, let us turn this into the Battle of Salamis (Wikipedia it. People may remember Thermopylae, but Salamis won the war) . Restricting the numbers they can bring to bear on us at one time will let us have some chance at success. Based on the current map, the best system to choose from would be Vulture. If you have criticisms beyond ,"UR AN IDOT", please reply.


  • Jonais
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Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #1
The whole point of the operation is to liberate Orion from the Vanduul. Any operation goal MUST have that as part of it's objective or it's not likely to gain any traction at all.
Tumbleweeds. A Lone Wolves inspired org.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/TUMBLWEEDS

Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #2
There are multiple posts that advocate Tiber and other suicidal options.

  • Jonais
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Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #3
True, but Orion is still the ultimate goal in those plans. We also have no idea what our opposition is going to look like until we get into the game. It doesn't hurt to make plans that take Tiber into account on the chance that we do decide to attack it.
Tumbleweeds. A Lone Wolves inspired org.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/TUMBLWEEDS

Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #4
There's no way the entire Vanduul Race can be in one single system at a time. It's virtually impossible. There's no system than can sustain an entire race. Specially undeveloped systems like the ones in the western frontier. The Horde Group mechanic for Vanduul fleets and the fact that they are likely to attack each other as much as they are likely to attack anything else prohibits this line of thought.

When it comes to Vanduul AI, I made a thread on the forums (not a single reply as of yet) which asks about how AI will work in an strategic level. Sure, there's AI to drive Vanduul ships, but do they actually have AI to determine how to react in a broader manner? IE.: Reinforce this system, attack this planet, etc.

You are also attributing conducts to the Vanduul that are contrary to Lore. The Vanduul don't seem to actually defend their systems, they go from place to place and scavenge what they can. Tiber, being the exception, is used to mine minerals to fuel their industry. Now, when it comes to the local standing force, there's no reason to think they'd be mirroring whatever the UEE has in Garron (of which there's no info as of yet). In any case, the Vanduul organize themselves around "Hordes"... taking into consideration their hostility, it'll be rare to find more than one on a system. Granted, it might be a strong one, but just one in the end.

We gain nothing by holding to a system with no strategic value. Even Orion is lackluster in this aspect. Orion is just a drive-through system for the Vanduul, it's said that they don't even have a constant presence in the system (as put into evidence by the existence of a small human colony in Orion). While there probably is a Gas Giant planet on the system, that'd be the only useful thing on it besides the propaganda effect. Still, Orion is two jump points away from UEE controlled space, which makes maintaining a logistical chain to it very unlikely unless you control said systems already.

Finally, when it comes to how to get our less honorable members to combat without having to deal with the UEE security forces, we've talked about sending a letter to congress to allow us free-passage for the Operation.

While some people may see this Operation as a glorious charge to the death, I share your idea of the plan being more than a "waaaaaagh!" call. However, your call for Vulture is a dangerous one. First, it's very unlikely there's a Vanduul controlled system that's flanked by an UEE controlled one and an unaligned one. This means that there's probably more jump-points to and fro Vulture that appear on the map. This, along with the lack of information and its poor strategic value make it an unwise choice to focus our attacks.
It's a penguin... with a gun. I'd run if I were you.

Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #5
Strategic value is nul in this situation. We are fighting to avenge Orion. If we were going gun-ho for resources then i would agree with you that an assault on Tiber would be the best choice, but that's not what this is.

Orion is also out of the picture due to the fact that it is further beyond the border than i would even try to contemplate assaulting.

Most peeps have talked about wanting to get a-hold of Vanduul tech. If we start trying to process resources during the middle of this thing, even after the system has been secured, we are going to start running into problems like Vanduul raiding parties.

On the subject of Vulture being flanked by neutral and UEE controlled, there is a map with the current known jump routes, it is (currently, things can change) flanked by Leir (neutral) and elysium (UEE).

Finally i never did state that the entire Vanduul race is set at Tiber, merely that it has a large counterpart to the Garron garrison for the UEE, which is fukhuge.

Fly like a Sir.

Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #6
I'll go into all the ways I disagree later on, but for now I'll say this: If you go into battle assuming you'll lose, you have already lost.

Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #7
I'm not seeing going into battle assuming you'll lose. I'm seeing going into battle with a realistic view of your own strengths and weaknesses. If you want platitudes, Sun Tzu has one about knowing yourself and knowing the enemy.
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
Envoy, USC
XO, USC Defense Force Training Command
Member, USC Interstellar Commerce
Member, USC Expeditionary Corps
Member, USC Department of Aerospace Engineering

Aurora LX (Traveller's Tales)
Anvil F7C-M (Ares' Gauntlet)
Anvil Carrack (Grey-Eyed Goddess)
Aegis Vanguard (Hero for Hire)
Anvil Crucible (Rustoff)

  • Nodrokov
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Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #8

Instead of turning this into a glorious final charge of the light brigade, let us turn this into the Battle of Salamis (Wikipedia it. People may remember Thermopylae, but Salamis won the war) . Restricting the numbers they can bring to bear on us at one time will let us have some chance at success. Based on the current map, the best system to choose from would be Vulture.

Ah, but you see, most 'forkers want a charge of the light brigade.  We want our operation to go down in history.

Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #9
Sorry to keep you waiting, Justin. My life's been a bit hectic lately. Anyway, let me list the objectives of Operation Pitchfork, in general order of prominence/importance:

1) Retake the Orion system.
2) Have fun in a huge battle.
3) Hold the Orion system after retaking it.
4) Influence the game's lore in a significant way, and see how much influence player input can have.
5) Take valuable or rare technology.
6) Perform an enormous stress test for Star Citizen so any issues involving extremely large battles can be fixed before release.

So your plan would throw out 1, 2, 3, and 6. In addition, 4 and 5 would be greatly reduced. You're quoting Sun Tzu, but you're not giving his precepts serious thought. "Know yourself and your enemy." You are bringing up the fact that they will have an overwhelming force and that ours will be less, and thinking of just that as complete knowledge.

Know your enemy: The Vanduul are nomadic and don't really defend their territory. Thus, you *can't* attack some minor system where the odds are in our favor in hopes of drawing them out, because the other Vanduul tribes have little to gain by supporting a system unrelated to them. This leaves an enormous number of Vanduul in this region of space, and once our main force has left, they'll simply retake the system with little effort.

Know yourself: You know those goals I posted up there? Those are the goals that the VAST majority of Pitchforkers signed up to try to achieve. They didn't sign up to be part of some boring battle where there are so few enemies that we might end up fighting each other for salvage or a chance at some action. They didn't sign up to sit in the solar system after an easy, clean sweep and wait for enemy reinforcements that will never arrive, so that they can "hold" the system. Without these goals, many or most players will reconsider their level of commitment to OP, reducing our fighting force much more quickly than the Vanduul.

And what does "holding" a system mean for Operation Pitchfork? You realize that Operation Pitchfork will take place over the course of a weekend, right? Once that weekend is over, the vast, vast majority of players involved in OP will go their own ways, and whatever system or systems they had taken will be abandoned. Since your plan involves fighting on a small fraction of Vanduul in their space, this will leave those few who do defend the system (or not necessarily defend, but are there while they are taking advantage of the system) against an incredibly overwhelming force that they can't possibly defeat.

So how do we "hold" a system, then? By cutting the Vanduul fighting force down considerably, increasing incentive for people to visit the system, and (possibly) enticing the UEE or other strong force to move into the system on a permanent basis. Attacking Tiber and Orion is the only way to accomplish that. Tiber is being used by the Vanduul to build ships, and taking that out will significantly hamper their ability to recover their forces. Tiber is also an attractive destination to salvagers, pirates, and large corporations (NPC or player) that might hope to take advantage of their production capacity and/or debris fields. Tiber is also the only system we know of that the Vanduul have a vested interest in defending, and thus will be the only system we can actually draw more of them into. This is especially true because they have a tactical advantage here. Orion on the other hand, still has humans living there, and would be a possible source of trade and growth. Additionally, many people who participated in OP would revisit these two systems out of a sense of pride.

This increased traffic and growth is necessary to actually defend the systems long-term, "taking" the system. The UEE had misgivings about invading this space due to their failures at The Grinder and Orion, so if we can remove these obstacles for them, they'd be more likely to move in and form a permanent presence. Of course, there may be other organizations that could fill this role, but the same would be true for either of them: a newly-growing human colony to support them and a huge enemy production system converted to their use would make the proposition much more attractive. As you see, attacking a weakly-defended Vanduul system does not accomplish these goals. This is also the reason why objectives 4 and 5 are greatly lessened with your plan.

Finally, Leir isn't actually a lawless system, it's just not UEE controlled. Choosing that as a jumping-off point for pirates and other unscrupulous-types has the incorrect assumption that they're all on friendly terms with The Outsiders. Nul is truly lawless, and the slavers who do business there aren't even present most of the time; they also have little incentive to attack a massive convoy of attack craft. You also need to keep in mind that this operation will happen at the end of beta, and we'll already be finding new jump lanes by that time.

The objective is not to claim a tiny victory. You can do that on your own. Just fly into Vanduul space, pick a fight, and live to tell the tale. There's your small, easy victory. The whole reason we are recruiting so many people is to accomplish the goals listed above.

Free Orion, destroy as many Vanduul as possible, enjoy the pretty explosions, maybe bring home a souvenir.
  • Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 10:44:45 PM by Knightcrawler

  • Ratu
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Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #10
Well said Knight.

Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #11
Agree with most of the points Knight brought...

Though I think the Operation will last more than a weekend.
It's a penguin... with a gun. I'd run if I were you.

  • Ratu
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Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #12
Probably a week is my best guess. Unless we have some really dedicated people who keep it going longer.

Re: Justin111111's Proposal
Reply #13
Eh. Irregulars can always surprise regulars. Its been that way since....ever.

Nevertheless, the OP's initial position is still valid. We need a realistically achievable goal that we can actually support. Furthermore, since we are a loose confederation of trigger-happy folk, we have to keep things simple.
United Space Confederation Envoy to Operation Pitchfork
Envoy, USC
XO, USC Defense Force Training Command
Member, USC Interstellar Commerce
Member, USC Expeditionary Corps
Member, USC Department of Aerospace Engineering

Aurora LX (Traveller's Tales)
Anvil F7C-M (Ares' Gauntlet)
Anvil Carrack (Grey-Eyed Goddess)
Aegis Vanguard (Hero for Hire)
Anvil Crucible (Rustoff)