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Topic: General SAR Discussion - Katamari (Read 6797 times) previous topic - next topic

General SAR Discussion - Katamari
Hi are we going to have set people to run search and rescue. We have to a number of place to take them too and ship to help cover them.
Was there any word from RSI on how SAR work in non UEA space?

Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #1
In my squadron write-up, every squadron should have multiple ships with tractor beams, and multiple ships with boarding capability. I don't think waiting for SAR or salvage teams are a good idea.

Leave the vultures nothing.

  • Benjamin the Rogue
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #2
Yeah, we're definitely going to have quite a few vultures following us. I can already here them cawing back and forth to each other. We'll probably have a plan for herding all of the wrecks together to keep them under our eye as our people reclaim stuff.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the mechanics for salvaging, repairing, and rescuing are going to be.

  • JackDaniels
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #3
Part of the reason I am hoping to be able to use an Idris with an empty hangar bay and just scoop em all up.
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  • Ratu
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #4
Sod the Idris, imagine if we could get our hands on a Bengal! I know people won't like stealing from the UEE but I'm sure we could find a group to 'liberate' a Bengal and then donate it to the cause.

  • Eleri
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #5
Perhaps those against 'borrowing' from the UEE would be able to look the other way if others who weren't so disinclined did the borrowing.

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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #6
I don't like that idea of stealing from the UEE because our time and resources could be better spent searching for a salvageable carrier. But on the lines of search and rescue we can still manage with freelancers or other ships designed for search and rescue.
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  • Ratu
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #7
We will get a better idea of how it works once the game starts but I am of the opinion that a crack strike team could disable and board a Bengal without too much effort. Theoretically all you have to do is suppress the CAP, remove the turrets around the docking ports/bays then either dock with the airlocks or just charge into the main docking bay. If we got a collection of highly trained and well equipped marines, I reckon a 14 man squad could take out the entire ship's complement. That's only two Freelancers worth of troops. Call it 4 Freelancers in case some get shot down and to guarantee the success of the boarding action then a squadron of Hornets for fighter interdiction. Hornets keep the fighters off the Freelancers whilst they move in and remove the turrets surrounding the docking bay. Depending on max effective range of missiles which the Freelancer can carry, we may need a bomber to assist with this. Hornets can assist with turret suppression as soon as the defending fighters are eliminated.

Depending on how we want to run it, we either have the Marines cross trained in various shipboard roles or we send in a transport full of crew once the ship is secured to start fixing it and getting it the hell out of there before the UEE can respond properly.

This plan assumes that the Bengal will be on its own. If it has other capital and sub-capital ships escorting it, this job will become a hell of a lot harder and will then start requiring too much of our fleet to pull off. That said, if we could board all of the escorting ships, that would hugely boost our fleet and make up for losses incurred in the operation.
  • Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 06:27:25 PM by Ratu

  • Benjamin the Rogue
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #8
It's going to be fun to daydream about these tactics as the details start coming out more and more. I wonder if we'll have sneaking abilities, like being able to infiltrate a ship or something?

  • JackDaniels
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #9

We will get a better idea of how it works once the game starts but I am of the opinion that a crack strike team could disable and board a Bengal without too much effort. Theoretically all you have to do is suppress the CAP, remove the turrets around the docking ports/bays then either dock with the airlocks or just charge into the main docking bay. If we got a collection of highly trained and well equipped marines, I reckon a 14 man squad could take out the entire ship's complement. That's only two Freelancers worth of troops. Call it 4 Freelancers in case some get shot down and to guarantee the success of the boarding action then a squadron of Hornets for fighter interdiction. Hornets keep the fighters off the Freelancers whilst they move in and remove the turrets surrounding the docking bay. Depending on max effective range of missiles which the Freelancer can carry, we may need a bomber to assist with this. Hornets can assist with turret suppression as soon as the defending fighters are eliminated.

Depending on how we want to run it, we either have the Marines cross trained in various shipboard roles or we send in a transport full of crew once the ship is secured to start fixing it and getting it the hell out of there before the UEE can respond properly.

This plan assumes that the Bengal will be on its own. If it has other capital and sub-capital ships escorting it, this job will become a hell of a lot harder and will then start requiring too much of our fleet to pull off. That said, if we could board all of the escorting ships, that would hugely boost our fleet and make up for losses incurred in the operation.


OK this is starting to get way off topic and farther in the territory of piracy or all out assault against the UEE. I am going to have to ask to keep this back on the topic of SEARCH and RESCUE.

*edit* Sorry for the earlier post, Please lets continue the discussion of a Search and Rescue wing.
  • Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 01:50:19 AM by JackDaniels
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  • Ratu
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #10
Apologies. Feel free to delete the objectionable posts as I have copied my plan elsewhere.
Back on topic, I agree that we will likely need a large fleet for SAR OPS. If we have Idris class ships, we should be able to conduct repairs on single seat ships with ease. Will any of the other ships aside from the Bengal be suited to actual repair work? I feel that the ability to conduct repairs will be crucial to supporting the overall operation and getting the rescued pilots back in business.

  • Harker
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #11
The idris will be as good for repairs as any ship with a sizeable hangar so anything idris size or larger would do; I'd imagine the actual repairs would have to be player prompted or player setup. There's also the potential for repairs that can't be fixed in the field, such as destroyed equipment.

Materials for repair and resupply will most likely have to be donated from the involved players and orgs, though.

  • JackDaniels
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #12

I agree that we will likely need a large fleet for SAR OPS. If we have Idris class ships, we should be able to conduct repairs on single seat ships with ease. Will any of the other ships aside from the Bengal be suited to actual repair work? I feel that the ability to conduct repairs will be crucial to supporting the overall operation and getting the rescued pilots back in business.


Well if we was to do this we would still need to make sure we can honestly do field repairs that don't require us to shuttle combat pilots and their ships back to a repair hangar at one of the local systems... Granted I highly doubt even doing a tow through a jump point would be possible. But, this would be a perfect question to ask to Wingman once they get the Idris completed... or ask if there is a plan to allow for Hangar Bay ship repair or something along those lines..


The idris will be as good for repairs as any ship with a sizeable hangar so anything idris size or larger would do; I'd imagine the actual repairs would have to be player prompted or player setup. There's also the potential for repairs that can't be fixed in the field, such as destroyed equipment.

Materials for repair and resupply will most likely have to be donated from the involved players and orgs, though.


I would also agree... but after you mentioning that the idea of having a mobile repair ships of some sorts I am hoping that we could see about making use of a few Idris's for a wing of some sorts for the rescue and repair supposing we could get that lucky... maybe even make use of the Cutlass or Caterpillar's for that too for salvage ops during the Rescue missions, to help with the re-supply for replacement equipment for the repair's needed.

Then the last note you had Harker was one of the plans I was hoping for was to get everyone working together enough that we wouldn't have to worry about funds or equipment until after the operation to help keep everyone else open to sharing... but I don't know how many individuals would be willing or open to that idea. I know that I would throw what I knew I could spare but mostly I would want to target salvaging so we can help the individual fill out the insurence claim and get them into another ship with some of the left overs of their old ship..
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  • Ratu
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #13
Well if we CAN use ships with Hangers for repairs of any scale, it will make sense to have at least one Idris per SAR group. I reckon we will have at least some rich captains in this operation who will be able to donate spare parts and suchlike.

We also need to work out how big we want these SAR units to be. Perhaps an Idris for C&C and repairs for small ships then a Catapillar for storing spare parts and salvage then probably a Cutlass or two for towing. Assume three Hornets carried by the Idris for protection and maybe a Constellation for more cargo space, firepower and its P52 to add another fighter.
I see this as being the smallest viable unit for such a role. Thoughts?

  • Shank
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #14
I think from the little I remember from WH episodes and the forums that the Caterpillar is supposed to be good for repairs but all the talk has been vague. Once we have more info it may turn out that it can repair larger ships on the go. We'll just have to see, more than likely once they put the brochure out and any modifications that happen along the way.

I have one, and once I know what I'm best at in game, I may use it for this.

We can also have anyone who have more than 1 character sleep mode repair/supply ships with the 2nd character till needed.

We can't rely on possibly having rich Captains, each person needs to stockpile equipment and munitions for their chosen ships, since creds won't do much good on the battle field without stores around.

  • Ratu
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #15
Oh sure, personal stockpiling is a given. I intend to have enough components to build at least three of each of my ships from scratch :D

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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #16
Thinking about it, I would probably group SAR ships into multi-purpose staging convoys, with one or two per system.

Each convoy would have a couple of squadrons of fighter cover as well as some gunboats or strike bombers, which would screen a core of Idrises and larger ships plus numerous noncombat vessels for repair, refueling and salvage.

They'd stay far back from combat, but would be broadcasting constantly as a "safe harbour" for Pitchforkers to regroup at for repairs and refueling, as well as periodically sending out patrols to pick up downed pilots.

  • JackDaniels
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #17
wow I know this is still far off.. but our theory crafting is starting to get into some serious details... Personally I wanted to try and keep it simple to the point that we honestly won't know how the game will handle all of this.

Personally I view the Cutlass and the Caterpillar being the key ships for towing and salvage. The Idris in mind was going to be a re-fit option for those that just needed to get some quick repair's anyway's but still attempt to scoop up any ship and escape pods as the need arrived. Will we even be lucky enough to find a decent section of a ship that could still keep a ship combat efficient?

But, another thought was the Connie wouldn't make for that good of a salvaging ship but that idea comes from the fact that the entire ships salvage function would be through the loading bay and the hangar having to be empty of the P52 and while that is empty you still have to vent the entire ship to space to access the cargo hold.

Could we possibly try and keep some details a bit more open rather then planned to a letter? Personally I don't want to see a plan that someone will take to heart especially if we find out that the caterpillar can do *Special Object*, while Cutlass can do *special Object*, then Connie gets completely re-designed... I just don't want to see someone's well played plans go up in smoke because of designs or functions allowed in the game.

I get the feeling we may even have something like freelancer that was giving us external repair systems that would work to repair what it could to keep us moving and we may just have to implement repair drones or something along those lines.
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  • Ratu
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #18
You mean I can't cling to my devious ideas like a crutch then rage when game mechanics make them impossible? :P

Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #19
Uh, what? To this whole thread. :-P

Search and Rescue isn't towing damaged ships in for repair, it's rescuing people who are in trouble. I'm pretty sure that once a craft is damaged to the point where the pilot needs rescue, or the ship can't get to a hangar, it can't be repaired anymore. It's a wreck, or much more likely a quickly expanding cloud of hot debris. The pilot might remain (and it has been stated this is a possibility) though, hence the SAR.

Perhaps it's more effective to let pilots die so they can respawn at their hangars faster, but I believe CR has already said he won't let people who have died in a battle rejoin that battle before it ends. There might be some busy work you have to do before you can go out flying again, or something else to delay the player. A player who dies might not be able to rejoin the battle. But for me personally, I don't want to see a huge number of player deaths to accomplish our goals. I don't want to see everyone who participates in this starting the game with one or more injuries, or losing their character. That's why I want to do SAR. The plus side to this is that if pilots think there's a chance they will make it out of the battle alive, even if they crash and burn, they'll fight smarter, trust in cooperation more, and cause more pilots will join in the first place. An SAR crew says "Hey, this will be a tough fight. But even if things don't go well for you, you'll make it out okay."

A Bengal or Idris, or any other capital ship, is not suited for SAR work. Any capitol ship we bring to bear in a fight will become the center of the enemies' attention. Ships are going to be destroyed in hot areas, where lasers and rail gun shots whiz by. If an Idris were in range to tractor in a disabled pilot, they'd be INSIDE the enemy force and would be torn to shreds. It not just endangers the most important ship in the battle, but the intensified fighting nearby would also likely result in the pilot's death. Additionally, capitol ships don't have the kind of acceleration (and possibly speed) needed to perform SAR work.

As far as I see it, the best ships for SAR work are the Avenger, Cutlass, Freelancer, and Constellation. An SAR craft needs cargo and/or crew space to hold rescued pilots. CIG has suggested that the Caterpillar is too slow and ungainly to survive heavy fire zones. It has to have the capability to mount a tractor beam or other rescue device, and it might possibly be useful to apply that tractor beam to a turret. I imagine grabbing a pilot at ridiculous relativistic speeds will kill him (whiplash, broken bones, sudden, incredibly high G forces, etc.), so the rescue craft likely will have to slow to a crawl while rescuing a pilot. However, they are likely in a heavy fire zone, so you'll need to get out of there fast. Additionally, you're going to be rescuing pilots all over the battlefield, so you're going to need to accelerate in a new direction after every pickup.

This means that when modding an SAR ship, the most important things are having a Tractor Beam, then advanced sensors for pinpointing the locations of downed pilots (if they don't automatically show up on radar), then having engines geared toward very high acceleration and deceleration, then toward elements that make the craft more survivable (I'd suggest stealth, but shields or speed are other options). A single instance can't be filled with SAR craft or the military potential of the human side there is lessened, so the SAR craft needs to be able to *survive* for long periods of time. Relying on armor or firepower won't get you that. Best if the enemy barely notices you. Medical equipment might also be helpful to get pilots back into fighting shape ASAP. Cargo capacity (humans are small and light, and might possibly not even count toward cargo capacity but instead toward a passenger count; we don't know yet) or even firepower might be sacrificed to achieve a craft that can live up to these many standards.

We have no idea how many non-crew passengers ships can pick up or how exactly that works, but at some point an SAR crew will need to unload their passengers. They can either dock with a capitol ship in their instance, or they can FTL to the nearest closest friendly area and drop off crew at a "hospital ship" there. The pilots won't have their ships, though. They might have to be shuttled toward a nearby system's hangar where they prepared their ships in advance, or (more likely) they can join the crew of a multi-crew ship. I find it very unlikely that all our Retaliators, Gladiators, Hornets, Constellations, Idrises, Starfarers, Caterpillars, etc will have a full crew. Alternatively, they could strap on armor and become part of a boarding party. If they decide to go pick up a different ship at a nearby UEE planet, they can hitch a ride on our supply convoy. In the same way, if the rescued pilot is returned to a capitol ship in an actively-fighting instance, they could hitch a ride on the supply ships after they drop off ammunition and equipment that will be used for repairs/rearms.

I don't think SAR should get an escort, certainly nothing big. Nearby pilots engaging in combat will simply have to recognize that they should try to draw engaging enemies into dogfights with themselves, leaving the SAR ship alone. And of course, Constellations come with their own escort. There should be 1 (possibly 2) SAR craft per instance; dedicating one or two squadrons to their defense would basically cut offensive power in half. SAR pilots could have have additional responsibilities besides tractoring in pilots, like providing pick-up for injured marines trying to capture Vanduul ships, using their advanced sensors to try to tell when a Vanduul ship begins its self-destruct protocol (if this is possible), using its advanced sensors to launch missiles at craft from long range, and coming back with equipment and ammunition if they FTL to our safe zone to drop off rescued pilots. Many SAR ships have turrets, and could harass Vanduul ships engaging with the primary force while at the same time retreating from that enemy. After the battle and everyone is rescued, they can attempt to help in salvage operations.

SAR is a very dangerous job because you never know who you're going to pick up. That pirate who was fighting the Vanduul might suddenly decide he likes your ship, or Vanduul might board your ship when you provide pickup from a boarding operation. You'll also be carrying other pilots most of the time, so if you go down, a lot of pilots die. Griefers might also target or pose as SAR for obvious reasons. If at all possible, internal security (like force fields) might be a good idea.

I'm hesitant to start talking about salvage since it's a different subject, but I think salvage should only start in earnest after the instance has been won. Nobody wants to leave valuable stuff behind, but it'd be nice if people who won their instance went to support other instances, provide security, or pick a good time to get repaired and rearmed for the next battle.

I also doubt we'll have enough Idrises for every instance, and Idris-P's have more limited utility in combat. Hopefully we'll be able to get a bunch of legally capturable ships or purchase some; we have a long time in Alpha and Beta before this gets started. But every person manning a capitol ship is another person not out flying, so capitol ships aren't an instant win. Again, this and the previous paragraph and unrelated to this topic and should probably be discussed elsewhere.
  • Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 03:19:22 PM by Knightcrawler

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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #20

You mean I can't cling to my devious ideas like a crutch then rage when game mechanics make them impossible? :P


well its up to you if you wish to do that... but me personally I plan to stick with what I know and what has been confirmed so far. As for me I will more then likely start posting *Unconfirmed Proposed IDEA* next time I wanted to go to exact fine details of saying this is what I am doing and this is how its going to be done... but as for me I am still throwing the theory out there with what we know we can pilot a hornet into an idris and on to other ships like the Bangel carrier... But we still don't have more details on the salvage mechanics.

*Unconfirmed Idea*
We could still scoop up players in the escape pods into our cargo holds with out tractor beams. or Tractor those that are trapped and then lead them to safety till some one else with a cargo hold to save them can save them. While at the same time using salvaging lasers with the tractor beams to start collecting and store all the materials and towing away other ships that could be re-built from scrap.


Search and Rescue isn't towing damaged ships in for repair, it's rescuing people who are in trouble. I'm pretty sure that once a craft is damaged to the point where the pilot needs rescue, or the ship can't get to a hangar, it can't be repaired anymore. It's a wreck, or much more likely a quickly expanding cloud of hot debris. The pilot might remain (and it has been stated this is a possibility) though, hence the SAR.

SAR is a very dangerous job because you never know who you're going to pick up. That pirate who was fighting the Vanduul might suddenly decide he likes your ship, or Vanduul might board your ship when you provide pickup from a boarding operation. You'll also be carrying other pilots most of the time, so if you go down, a lot of pilots die. Griefers might also target or pose as SAR for obvious reasons. If at all possible, internal security (like force fields) might be a good idea.

I'm hesitant to start talking about salvage since it's a different subject, but I think salvage should only start in earnest after the instance has been won. Nobody wants to leave valuable stuff behind, but it'd be nice if people who won their instance went to support other instances, provide security, or pick a good time to get repaired and rearmed for the next battle.

I also doubt we'll have enough Idrises for every instance, and Idris-P's have more limited utility in combat. Hopefully we'll be able to get a bunch of legally capturable ships or purchase some; we have a long time in Alpha and Beta before this gets started. But every person manning a capitol ship is another person not out flying, so capitol ships aren't an instant win. Again, this and the previous paragraph and unrelated to this topic and should probably be discussed elsewhere.


Thank you for helping to throw this topic back to where it needed to go. Sorry that I got a little off topic as well. But personally I am looking to SAR and Salvage as possible with in two or close to the same idea. You have helped prove to me that could be a valuable error.

As for now I want to mark your post as the current well thought out post to plan for a SAR posting.

As for me I feel that the Idris could be made into a medical ship as well but because the game is still trying to flush out more I can only still pose a theory to this idea of mine. I am hoping that from your post we can also help formulate plenty of questions to submit to have answered in Wingmans Hangar.
As to keep some one else from asking if we can even do SAR in general to Wingmans Hangar it was answered earlier that you could rescue downed pilots and potentially get rewarded from their insurance company for saving them.

So doing a SAR will be another source of income for some other pilots that are apart of this operation.
  • Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 05:11:59 PM by JackDaniels
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  • Ratu
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #21
You make a good point KnightCrawler, I'd gotten off the topic of SAR and onto Salvage by accident.
I agree with most of your ship choices, not so sure about the Connie though. They don't have easy ingress points when in space, unlike the Avenger and Freelancer.

Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #22
Hmm, you may be correct to have concerns about the Constellation. Do we have to manually control every aspect of the tractor beam, or after we get a "grip," can we simply tell it to bring the object inside? In this case, does the Constellation try to bring it in through the entrance, or the (three?) docking rings, or does it lower its cargo platform and pull it into there? In that case, I think Constellations might actually be especially good at recovering pilots, because the cargo platform can be raised up to two different positions, and I think can essentially act as an airlock? But what if it doesn't, or cargo is pulled in somewhere else? Will the pilots go someplace inaccessible from the main ship, will they be pulled in through the docking collars and shields act as an airlock, or will you actually have an air leak?

I'm gonna guess Connies tractor in through the cargo platform, though. Seems like the most practical way. If your P52 is in there, though, there might be some problems.

Where do we submit questions to Wingman's Hangar? I rolled a few questions I had together below:

"I have questions about tractor beams. Do tractor beams aim straight forward, can their beam be aimed, or can they only be aimed if they are placed on turrets? When an object is grabbed, do you have to 'crane game' it to your cargo area, or can you set it to do this automatically? If the beam aims straight forward, or if the beam is out of line of sight with your cargo bay, how does this work? Do you have to worry about air rushing out when you open the cargo door to your ship, and what can be done about this? Can they be used in combat to affect enemy ships? If so, can multiple tractor beams from multiple ships stack their effects? Sorry for the many questions, and I thank you 42 times!"
  • Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 09:46:14 AM by Knightcrawler

  • JackDaniels
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #23

I'm gonna guess Connies tractor in through the cargo platform, though. Seems like the most practical way. If your P52 is in there, though, there might be some problems.

Where do we submit questions to Wingman's Hangar? I rolled a few questions I had together below:

"I have questions about tractor beams. Do tractor beams aim straight forward, can their beam be aimed, or can they only be aimed if they are placed on turrets? When an object is grabbed, do you have to 'crane game' it to your cargo area, or can you set it to do this automatically? If the beam aims straight forward, or if the beam is out of line of sight with your cargo bay, how does this work? Do you have to worry about air rushing out when you open the cargo door to your ship, and what can be done about this? Can they be used in combat to affect enemy ships? If so, can multiple tractor beams from multiple ships stack their effects? Sorry for the many questions, and I thank you 42 times!"


Very good observation.. But, I would like to note that on an earlier episode of wingman's hangar they confirmed that we can tractor a ship but it is for towing and at any time that it tries to activate thrusters or anything you manage to damage the ship trying to use the tractor beam. So in point the use of the tractor beam has to be disabled of any thrust options or basic floating items in space. Would be worth while to ask if placing a tractor beam on a Connie would be optional.

But, in short.
Ship with active thrusters will damage a ship trying to tractor it.
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  • Ratu
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Re: Search and resue wing?
Reply #24
You'd think that it would just get pulled along for the ride and/or both ships would be damaged.