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Topic: Idris Roles (Read 5119 times) previous topic - next topic

  • Ryuto
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Idris Roles
I'm not sure how many Idris owners we have in Pitchfork at the moment, I know I'm one, I'll be bringing my Idris M along for the ride with a full load of Hornets. Do we have any game plan on what we're going to be using the Idris' for yet? I can see a couple of possibilities, some of which could overlap.

1. Command and Control: Having the Idris' in the back lines and using their CiC systems in order to try and keep control over targets on in the battlespace and general flow of battle.

2. Support: Using the Idris' hangars in order to possibly repair, refit and refuel the fighters that are part of the attack, we could also use them as forward bases for some of the scout thrusts early in the operation.

3. Assault: I personally wouldn't use this option unless we're assured that we have some level of control over the battlespace or really need the extra firepower. In my opinion the Idris' are going to be probably among our most valuable assets since they're likely the only capital level assets we're going to have. That being said, their firepower and use as carriers might still be useful if we get stiff enough resistance or need that extra bit of push for a breakthrough.

Just a couple thoughts, feel free to chime in.
  • Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 05:06:30 AM by Benjamin the Rogue

Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #1
If someone has multiple idrises, would be interesting to find out how long the replacement time is early on.

My opinion, personally, for retaliators and idrises is that we're going to want to get them loaded out, as much as is feasible. Retaliators presumably come empty, and idrises are going to take a long time to replace anyway.

My current thought is that, if we can, we'll want to set flight size at one-half the maximum, and idrises will specifically be a part of reinforcement flights. What that will mean is up for grabs at the moment, but they should be mop-up units.

So it would go like

Vanduul Wing meets Pitchfork Wing. Let's say the cap per side is 60 (of whatever unit - ships, characters, whatever). Pitchfork wing is slightly outnumbered - 900 to 600. These will split into combats of 45 versus 30

An Idris wing, containing several well-equipped flights each with one Idris, will be trailing slightly behind, and will then divide into flights, each one reinforcing a currently engaged flight. Once they've mopped up, the victorious flights separate, and each reinforce another flight.

Rinse, repeat.

There will probably be special engagements, however, I'm thinking/hoping we'll actually have a number of destroyers and possibly even frigates by that time. If we can insure destroyers (seems likely), we'll probably end up using those as our primary assault craft, with larger uninsurable craft as primary support/c&c.

  • Ryuto
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #2
That sounds like a good plan, at least with as far as we know so far. Keeping the Idris' in the back and using them as support flights and reinforcements is probably the safest bet. Though, it's probably a good idea to keep at least some fighters in reserve to defend the Idris' if something either gets past the front lines or pops up behind them.

Naturally, all this depends on what the Idris can and can't do as far as protecting itself and projecting its own power. Since they're not actually in the game yet we can't be wholly sure of the full capabilities of the ships.

Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #3

That sounds like a good plan, at least with as far as we know so far. Keeping the Idris' in the back and using them as support flights and reinforcements is probably the safest bet. Though, it's probably a good idea to keep at least some fighters in reserve to defend the Idris' if something either gets past the front lines or pops up behind them.

Naturally, all this depends on what the Idris can and can't do as far as protecting itself and projecting its own power. Since they're not actually in the game yet we can't be wholly sure of the full capabilities of the ships.


The Idris' would be a part of a full flight in this case. So if a flight was 30 units, an Idris would take up e.g. 10 of it, the other 20 would be additional craft of carious mixes.

  • Ryuto
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #4
That's what I figured. With the Idris acting as something of a central command point/fallback position?

Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #5
When engaging Vanduul while outnumbering them? Heck no. Unless they have some sort of suicide bomber ability. Responsible use of firepower means don't waste it, but do actually use it.

  • Ryuto
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #6
Well, the Scythes are equipped with a ramming blade. So, apparently ramming is part of their tactics in some fashion.

Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #7
Ah, true.

The light support should still outnumber them, regardless. And with them already being engaged, will remain to be seen if their AI is capable of realizing what is going on at this scale.

  • Ryuto
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #8
It'll be interesting to say the least. I'm very curious to see how adaptive the AI is when engaged by a large number of players with varying classes, numbers and sizes of ships. I'm sure CIG is, too.

Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #9
With what I can see so far it may be best to blend air and naval tactics to a degree. In this Instance I think we may want to use the Idris-Ms as a battleship analogue in that they're our best anti-capital platform with the heavy railguns, and use Retaliators formed up around each one in something like the old bomber formations as the navy cruiser screen. This would give us a huge punch against large ships and along with some fighter escort and CnC from the Idris should provide very good defense from fighters until make our range. This is of course subject to change as we learn more about the capabilities of the ships.

  • JackDaniels
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #10
wow sorry I didn't even notice this thread until now.. But I am an Idris-P owner as well and I do hope to have a plan worked up for us in due time but So far what you have posted was the general plan's I already had in the works... keep up the good work so far  ;D
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #11
do we entend once entered in the system to lock it and endure the waves of vanduul ? or take it and continue to the next until no Pitchfork warriors is left alive, so we can show that US too can put a ... Fork(?) in their systems.

I say to the Vanduul Capital ! haha

  • Andy_H
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #12
I am all for using Idris' as a mobile base for repairs if that is possible. As we don't know how long a replacement would take, it seems we should hold them behind the main lines. Depends on the mechanics and such, like if fighters can dock, repair, rearm, and go back into action rapidly; or if they dock and are simply hauled around.

Also to keep some for later waves, rather than all in the first one. I think we'll eventually end up with more pilots than ships at some point, which means more available for boarding parties and gunners.

Again, depends on what the unreleased mechanics are. So much speculation, so many plausible ideas...Lol.

Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #13
If possible, I think having at least a single idris with each squadron would be best. They can be used as command and control ships AND as repair/rearm points for the accompanying fighter screen which is sort of the point of capitals..

Best I know, they'd have to actually be in the instance to be C&C ships, but that just means we'll either have to keep them lagging well behind the fighter screen or have the fighters keep a close eye on them to intercept any hostiles.

Not that they don't seem to have teeth of their own, but best to take a little longer in the fight and keep the command ships well protected, right?
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  • Ratu
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #14
I agree with AdmlBaconStraps.

Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #15
None of us really know how Idrises will work, but while they're big and powerful compared to everything else backers have, they're tiny compared to most capitol ships. They shouldn't be engaging in anti-capitol roles; their railgun will probably not outrange what a battleship or perhaps even carrier can field. I think as far as attacking, Idrises should hang back and use their railguns to attack the smallest targets they can conceivably hit. Probably no chance of hitting fighters, and they would be a waste anyway. However, attacking heavy bombers or other corvettes is probably a good idea. How many railgun hits do you think it'd take to shred a heavy bomber apart? Not many, right? Idrises could rack up kills this way, and allow the fighter and interceptor screen to work on other targets. This frees up our bombers to attack their capitols. Their other turrets can focus on large groups of fighters (better chance of hitting) or bombers that are in range.

Of course, I'm all for using Idrises to repair and rearm craft! I think that's probably their most effective use, and it's something that Idris-P's could do, too. However, this may require a supply chain. The supply chain would be armed, though, and could serve some minimal protection from flanking maneuvers, lessening the number of fighters needed to guard the rear. A C&C role is totally necessary, as well.

  • Ryuto
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #16

Of course, I'm all for using Idrises to repair and rearm craft! I think that's probably their most effective use, and it's something that Idris-P's could do, too. However, this may require a supply chain. The supply chain would be armed, though, and could serve some minimal protection from flanking maneuvers, lessening the number of fighters needed to guard the rear. A C&C role is totally necessary, as well.


I don't see any reason why Idris Ps couldn't repair other craft since there's no real difference between them and the M model except a couple weapons.

  • Harker
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #17
I like the idea to mix naval and air tactics, it's got a solid history in scifi and will give us a good basis of real life experience to work off. Corvettes will theoretically be faster and more maneuvrable than other superheavies, so in numbers they could be used to swarm Vanduul superheavies and overwhelm through force in numbers while avoiding the heavier weaponry.

  • JackDaniels
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #18

I like the idea to mix naval and air tactics, it's got a solid history in scifi and will give us a good basis of real life experience to work off. Corvettes will theoretically be faster and more maneuvrable than other superheavies, so in numbers they could be used to swarm Vanduul superheavies and overwhelm through force in numbers while avoiding the heavier weaponry.


Agreed that we can run a mixed tactic with what we currently know. One of the things is that more then likely those of us with an Idris-P will have different roles then those with an Idris-M. Just saying we have an Idris different variants will still define the roles.

Idris-P more then likely a support Cap-ship as added gun's for a patrol wing or something along those lines.
Idris-M Railgun leaves it up to the setup you just suggested. Thought still leaving the key to its firepower to the front of the ship.

I honestly like the idea of wanting to plan around that. Sorta like using the Railgun like a long range weapon if we can get some distance and range effectiveness from the weapon details. But still keeping the Idris to the rear of any fleet action will still keep it for many key rolls including C&C, Re-arming, SAR drop-off.
  • Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 11:35:09 AM by JackDaniels
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #19
Also don't forget, Aegis Dynamics, according to Devs, also offer Idris Kits to militarise/demilitarise the Idris-M or Idris-P.

So come beta's end, owners of an Idris can decide exactly what role they want to fulfill, in the campaign.

Also in the time between beta and the launching of OPPF, others might have acquired bigger, more powerful warships.

  • Harker
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #20
As the largest ships we're 100% certain of having in Pitchfork, the corvettes need to function as a "solid core" for punching through Vanduul lines while the rest of the fleet rallies around them.

That's why (and I've written this up in more detail elsewhere) I think an ideal fleet plan would split everyone up into mobile battlegroups built around a handful of corvettes each, creating superstrong fleet clusters that would seriously deter any human predators as well as being simple and clear structure yet capable of going head to head with Vanduul fleets.

Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #21

As the largest ships we're 100% certain of having in Pitchfork, the corvettes need to function as a "solid core" for punching through Vanduul lines while the rest of the fleet rallies around them.

That's why (and I've written this up in more detail elsewhere) I think an ideal fleet plan would split everyone up into mobile battlegroups built around a handful of corvettes each, creating superstrong fleet clusters that would seriously deter any human predators as well as being simple and clear structure yet capable of going head to head with Vanduul fleets.


I don't think we can count on getting more than one Idris into an instance. I think it probable that we can, but it seems it would be advisable to plan a core around a single Idris that can be scaled up, rather than a formation that calls for multiple and needs to be cut apart.

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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #22

I don't think we can count on getting more than one Idris into an instance. I think it probable that we can, but it seems it would be advisable to plan a core around a single Idris that can be scaled up, rather than a formation that calls for multiple and needs to be cut apart.


yeah I am kinda thinking the same thing but more then likely we will be sticking an Idris and a destroyer or escort of some sorts with that but... if the only thing we get is the Idris as a Cap ship... I would say having 2 for the fleet actions and movements... for the most part I see a battle plan similar to a potential fall back or advance so much and keeping two for re-arming would help speed up the needed pilots for the fight... but that was if the role was to be re-arm and refitting and repair work... suspecting that we can hold 3 single seat fighters in the idris one could be dedicated for quick re-arm and the other for damage repair and re-arm at the same time so not to slow down the re-arm time for all deployed.
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  • Benjamin the Rogue
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #23
Definitely some solid planning using proven tactics here. I think you guys have got this evolving into a pretty solid direction. When we start seeing the functioning game mechanics, I have no doubt there will be a well thought out tactical advisory letter going out to everyone shortly after from this think tank with some great guidelines for instancing.

I'm hoping CIG manages to get the instancing sizes up to the technological maximum. The more we're going to be able to fit into these things the greater an advantage I think we'll have over an AI, as it will let us better diversify to our fleets needs.

Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #24
As far as Idrises, we really only have a few to use. *However,* with the current numbers, it's possible that we could get 2 per instance... This is because the people who own Idrises might have friends they trust with them in different time zones. So the Idrises can be consistently deployed 24/7, whereas the owner can only play so many hours at a time.

  • JackDaniels
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #25

As far as Idrises, we really only have a few to use. *However,* with the current numbers, it's possible that we could get 2 per instance... This is because the people who own Idrises might have friends they trust with them in different time zones. So the Idrises can be consistently deployed 24/7, whereas the owner can only play so many hours at a time.


That plan would still fall under allowed mechanics and features for the game to allow for that... I do remember then mentioning something along those lines of being able to loan or something along those lines but I can't fully remember what they said on it.. But, I do remember they did talk about an access listing for those to be aboard your ships as a potential feature. As for me, I have a large number of friends but even then that list trusted with the charge of my Idris is limited to 2 people and that is because of knowing them for at least 5 years.

If it boils down to when the owner log's and the players on board can pilot the ship then I think they can... or it just auto-pilots to the last docked location for safety... wow now I really gotta find this info again...
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #26
Yeah, and don't worry, you'll never see me blaming anyone for not wanting to loan out their ship. In fact, if someone steals an Idris during OP, I'll help take it back. Don't care who it belongs to.

  • Benjamin the Rogue
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #27
Yeah, any ships stolen during OP Pitchfork are going to get put back into the right hands, one way or the other. That's my personal word on the subject.

  • Shobab
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #28
As far as Idris's roles in the up coming operation, I believe that an Idris would be put to the best use making full use of its firepower. Flagships of your fleet, which the Idris will most likely be for us, generally are your stongest/stronger ships. It would be a waste to use Idris just as a repair station.

I believe given what Ben has stated about the Caterpillar, that we should have an Idris and Caterpillar in every instance.
Here is what Ben said:
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/578005/#Comment_578005

Using the Idris as a C&C ship and using its firepower to help eliminate an other capital ships and bombers, to me, would be our best play. Then nearing the rear of the engagement (all large ships should be fairly close to provide point defense for each ship. Some of the fighers and bombers will be making runs on the enemy ships in the back) we have a Caterpillar or 2 that will be being used as repair stations. If they cannot hold fuel, depending on fuel times (we might not need refueling till after the engagements) we can have a starfarer as well.

If we get over run, we fallback and regroup for round 2, 3, ,4, ...ect

Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #29
Good to know about the Caterpillar.

  • Shobab
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #30
Also, going to leave this here.  http://i.imgur.com/dcS9c7r.jpg

Some think we will be able to overwhelm the vanduuls, but I do have to say that while having a nice swarm can work, it would be best to use the initial swarm as a screen for coordinated Operations. We will see once we can scout vanduul space, but I would assume they have a few of their own carriers and many destroyers, frigates, crusiers, battleships, and such.

Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #31
Yeah, if you'll look closely, the guns on the Bengal are almost as big as a Freelancer. I'm sure they'll have a hard time hitting fast ships, but I'm pretty sure we're going to need some solid planning and a lot of skill to make this work. I'd also like to point out that while Idrises are big, they're are the size of just the bridge on large capital ships. Which is why I think sending them headfirst into all the enemy capital ships is foolish.

So Shobab, is your suggestion perhaps... something like... that we send in a non-maxed (say 60/100 players) instance of superiority craft and then a strike group of bombers (say 40/100 players) through between all the instances, stopping for repairs and rearming at a safe place between runs? Or something of the like? Or maybe we send in a full 100/100 players, and we have 40 of them retreat to make room for 40 bomber players... That might be a solid plan. In fact, ordering the 40 most damaged players to retreat and repair/rearm will probably keep our pilots alive longer. And the battles where the bombers AREN'T present would have space superiority in the bag. Our central command could decide which battles to send bomber groups to next; perhaps instances where there are lots of caps, or instances where the number of enemy fighters have dwindled. We could even do the same thing with boarding crews... After all, for a large portion of the battle, those 4 dudes full battle armor in a Cutlass' cargo hold are just taking up space we could use for more fighters.
  • Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 10:50:20 AM by Knightcrawler

  • JackDaniels
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Re: Idris Roles and Command and Control.
Reply #32
OK.... so the two roles presented currently is that the Idris is used as a Flag ship for each group.... to be honest I do see a slight problem with that, but that is only limited with the current knowledge that we have on the Cap ships right now. The turrets could be very slow on the Idris making them the worst ships for close combat action. The turn Radius of the Idris could be so horrible with that slow turret speed that the Idris is doomed the second its surrounded by some ships that can do plenty of damage.

ON the other hand it could be prefect for going toe to toe against a Hornet, but we honestly don't know untill we can run a few test's ourselves and see the response time of the ships and the equipment aboard them.

As for now I would say work with what we currently know about the ship so far. It could work out great as a support ship providing C&C along with Ranged Turret systems and provisional Re-arming through the use of its Hangar Deck.

It could still be used for a S&R drop off Ship for pilots Rescued. And even though the Caterpillar is designed as a repair ship we could still pull some remainer's of ships into the Idris in the event we can't Tractor a ship through a Jump Point.

More and more as we compile all this info the Idris is looking like a major work horse for any group in my opinion.
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Re: Idris Roles
Reply #33
The plural of Idris is Idrii. That is all.
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  • BORK
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Re: Idris Roles
Reply #34
All this talk of battle makes BORK so excited. We should have at least one Idris to bring into battle. We will NOT be shy about using her either. We will be highly aggressive with her, in fact.

Really looking forward to OpPF.

BORK!

Re: Idris Roles
Reply #35
I'm of the belief that the best use of the Idris-class frigates is to serve as forward refueling, rearm, and repair points (assuming they can do all that). If a Idris can fit a Hornet, it can fit a Gladiator, and if it can rearm a Gladiator, then the amount of torpedoes we can fling at Vanduul pickets, escorts, and cap ships increases tremendously. We wouldn't need to commit our frigates against their larger ships; shoals of torpedo bombers will be able to do it.

So, if we use our frigates to serve as forward repair points, we can also use them to defend the jump points we're assaulting through, as well as whatever space refueling/resupplying areas we have (if, for example, we have a group of Starfarers acting as tankers, having several frigates defending that would make for good protection).
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  • TEUTknight
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Re: Idris Roles
Reply #36
I believe the best way to use the Idris would be a mix.

Command center to give commands.
Repair and resupply for returning vessels.
Support: assuming the Rail gun on the idris M has a long range.

However all these roles will be difficult to do one a single ship so I think the Idris M will have the long range support/ repair and resupply. Ships would only take 1 role.

While the Idris P will have Command and repair and resupply roles. Recommend only taking 1 role, however
I am not sure on the range commands can be effectively given from.

With both variants the ships Resupplying and repairing will be near the front lines while providing support with their firepower.

Edit: with this I believe we will have a decent amount in the front lines providing cover and rearming/repairing and at the same time have some of our Idris frigates further back to use their rail guns against large vanduul ships.

The long range support is further back in order to limit the fire they will receive from enemy Vanduul. Since with luck the front lines will be handling the vanduul small fighters and bombers.
  • Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 12:30:34 PM by TEUTknight

Re: Idris Roles
Reply #37
The main questions to me are if they can take a punch (and dish a serious one out) and how many slots they take in combat instances.

Chances are That the idris frigates are the largest ships we can field, chances are also that in the more major engagements they are still severely outgunned, especially the P-variants, by the Vanduul battleships... in the end it is up to the Idris captains themselves... but if possible and if there are volunteer Idris owners, then we should do extensive battle assessments to see if and how the Vanduul AI responds to them and how much punishment they can endure, well before the operation begins  ;)


Re: Idris Roles
Reply #38
Honestly, I think a healthy mix is the best answer here.

Support and repair ships are always a good idea, but since they have a command bridge as well, I think these could also double as mobile command and control rigs. No need to divide them up into two categories and therefore overclassify.

But if they account for any system for multicapital battles, which, though I know they won't be able to SHOW 8 caps going head to head 500m from eachother, I can imagine some type of long range combat occurring between more than two, like an artillery slug-fight. I think Idris's could be a powerful front line weapon, the could hunt with their crews and escorts, locate the site of a cap to cap battle, fire of a class 8 and flee to the next fight, cutting swaths through the small craft swarms while they move. While we should not send them head to head against each other, I do believe if we are wise and use tactics like this carefully we can lend the edge to our larger capitals in the fighting. We are going to need that especially if they get into multiple fights in sequence, the less damage they sustain in the previous fight, the better. Of course the risk in this is inherent, however, if we don't at least apply some risk and play the game too safe, I feel we will lose to an enemy such as this.

I also think we are underestimating our abilities to gather large arms for the fighting, remember that everything up to a Destroyer (and possibly and Escort Carrier) can be bought (though that means unfortunately permanently destroyed). I wouldn't doubt we could have some Javelins up and running come op time. And I am sure that one of our guilds could get their hands on something even bigger, like a battlecruiser or something.