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Topic: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage (Read 2675 times) previous topic - next topic

  • Jack Knife
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Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Everything is subject to change and updates!

All Infantry Based Information is based on the assumed Battalion Strength of 500 Infantry for OPPF to easily field at this time. https://operationpitchfork.com/forums/index.php?topic=1749.0

Data Analysis and Theorycraft
What vehicles/ships do we have confirmed for ground usage?
-Ursa Rover-Dedicated ground vehicle with 2 size 1 hardpoints on an unmanned turret, 6 wheels,2 crew seats and 4 passenger seats for 6 total seats. This vehicle resembles an Armored Personnel Carrier(APC) but fails to meet it's standards. I would qualify this vehicle as a Light Assault Vehicle(LAV).



-Lynx Rover-A known dedicated ground vehicle with no information other than it's name and assumed size due to it's name and ship it is carried in. A Lynx is smaller than a Bear(Ursa) which indicates it too will be smaller than the Ursa Rover. As such I would estimate it has 4 wheels and 4 seats. Weaponry is unknown,but it is presumed to be armed for it's size and purpose.
-Drake Dragonfly-A space motorcycle that is capable of maglev on the ground. It has 2 size 1 hardpoints and has 2 seats for a driver and passenger who is capable of firing any infantry weapon. It is also worth noting that it can exit a ship and fly before deploying maglev for ground travel for rapid deployment.
-Greycat-A tiny,slow and unarmed golf cart like dedicated ground vehicle that I do not want to ever see on a battlefield. I will personally draw a service revolver and execute the driver for gross incompetence.

Will there be tanks?
In my thirst for knowledge of ground combat with the Dragonfly and Ursa Rover I naturally thought to myself will there be tanks in the future? Someone else thought the same.

Chris Roberts was asked about tanks on an episode of 10 For The Chairman and he commented that it was a good idea but also stated large scale battles on a planet's surface may happen but not until long after release. We know now that it can happen far sooner than they previously thought. To understand the scale of which CR was talking about we look at Titan Armor he is a fan of Planetside 2 and MAX units are what he said was the inspiration for Titan Armor.

In an additional interview CR was asked "How detailed will damage modelling be? Will the angle of impact be taken into account when calculating armor penetration, with sloped armor having a chance to deflect shots?"

Chris Roberts-"So damage modeling will be very detailed.
That's actually one of the issues with getting everything ready for the dogfight. There's a huge amount of assets that have to be built, like the ships you'e seen, all the different pieces have to have multiple damaged parts, various levels of damage, a whole bunch of really cool graphical stuff that we're going to do for that, and we're modeling it pretty detailed too.

So there will definitely be the angle of incidence of a projectile hitting armor and ship will count in terms of the damage, the penetration ability, all that. My goal is to have the actual base level of the game actually physically detailed to a level I haven't done in one of my past games and then just have the high-end ship control stuff make it easier to fly around in and use, but underneath it all, it's all physically correctly modeled. So we're actually modeling internal system damage.
So if you have a targeting computer, avionics, system, life support, inside your ship, we actually have a place physically for it and it has its own geometry and render geometry. If a projectile goes through the shield then penetrates through the armor, we actually trace that projectile and if it hits that system in the physical space, then the system takes damage and potentially gets damaged.
So we're actually modeling all of this in an extremely detailed way. If you know where the weak parts, the critical parts of another ship are, you should have a bit of an advantage."

With this information I would speculate that at we will have Infantry Fighting Vehicles(IFVs) and/or Armored Fighting Vehicles(AFVs) at the very least if not full fledged Main Battle Tanks(MBTs).

What about Anti-Air(ship) or Surface to Air(Ship) Defences?
We see that the size one weapons we have in the game fit on the ground vehicles to it's essentially the same as if it were on a ship with a turret. In addition I would not doubt if missiles were added to some form of vehicle in the future since the mechanics are there and we can see all weapons are interchangeable all we need is a ground vehicle with missile pylons.

How does armor work?
Each set of armor is classified from light to medium to heavy scaling in speed,mobility,protection and firepower by weight matching their name. For example lighter armor gives speed and mobility,but less protection and firepower. Heavy armor on the other hand gives you more protection and firepower at the cost of speed and mobility. Medium is obviously a balance of the two.




What about Titan Armor?
Titan Armor is an additional exo-suit like piece of equipment that has a battery charge and charging stations can be put on ships to support them. They are predicted to be so powerful that this is the balance of it and as stated before they are inspired by Planet Side 2's MAX units. We currently have no images or further information other than they are the most heavily armored and equipped armors available to anyone. Here are similar images below to give you an idea.

In similar terms you may be familiar with Warhammer 40K Terminator Armor.

By the similar images above you can easily see how massive,very powerful, and very slow they are likely to be. They should be capable of wiping out entire squads and in a ship which is a confined space HIGHLY effective area of denial assets that can no doubt eliminate entire platoons. It is not even known if small arms are even capable of harming them.

Are there infantry based anti-vehicle weapons?
Yes,but there is a catch.You need large weapon capable armor to wield something capable of fielding such firepower.For example I actually found a shoulder mounted railgun that I suspect works like an anti-tank rifle.



In addition to this there is also a grenade launcher which has plausible anti-vehicle usage.

I also suspect a rocket or missile launcher will come in the future aswell. We also have an unknown weapon that has no basis in reality at the moment called the "Microwave Cannon" it is carried at the hip and discharges a constant focused laser beam which is questionable at best to damaging a vehicle,but certainly infantry.

So in conclusion I strongly advise all infantry to wear heavy armor and carry an anti-vehicle weapon with their main medium sized anti-infantry weapon. The heavy armor also increases their odds of survival which of course is welcome.


Ground Vehicle Assessment
Carracks=119-Ursa or Lynx(Unknown due to lack of development information.)
Connie Aquila=61-Ursa
Connie Phoenix=119-Lynx
Dragonfly=71

Ursa Rover=61(180?) Seats=366(1080?)
Lynx Rover=119(238?) Seats=476(952?)
Dragonfly=71 Seats=142

Total Vehicles=370
Total Seats=984(1222?)
Infantry Capability Assessment=2 Potential Battalions,1 Confirmed
As of 08/23/2016

Orbital Drop Strategum
So the first question is what to do before you hit the ground. I broke this down into phases.

1-Orbital Dominance-This is the OPPF Armada maintaining it's presence in orbit after securing a planetary orbit using other strategies that are not relevant here.
2-Planetary Scouting-Holding orbit is well and good,but before we drop we need targets to bomb and drop on. The same Recon elements we use in our Armada will send a detachment down to the surface to look for Vanduul installations on Tomb and in the Case of Orion also Armitage.


3-Designation of Landing Zones,Air Superiority and Space to Ground Bombing Targets- Recon capable of eliminating aerial threats will do so or call down detachments of fighters from orbit. Scouting Landing Zones(LZs)this will encompass large open spaces capable of dropships unleashing 500 minimum troops upon a infantry breachable target such as a Vanduul base or occupied city. Those targets deemed unworthy for ground invasion will be designated for bombing such as the Vanduul Logistical Station above aswell as any and all Vanduul anti-air assets with Suppression of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD) Missions through "wild weasel" precision strikes.
4-Strategic Bombing-Everything goes to hell for the Vanduul when Retaliators drops 10,000 lbs of Michael Bay on them. We commence Space to Ground Dive Bombing and erase every target we find that is not valuable enough to invade or impossible to invade from the ground.
5-Landing Zone Air Security and Orbital Invasion-With information gathered and threat reduction from strategic bombing we land our dropships under Close Air Protection(CAP) and Close Air Support(CAS) provided by recon and bomber detachments already inside the atmosphere.

Ground Deployment and Assault
This is where things get complicated. The following is my personal assessment on how best to deploy and assault with our assets and an assumed Battalion of 500 fielded infantry. From this point on a vast number of strategies and tactics can be deployed. This is mine.

Deployment

The first thing out and fighting will be Dragonflies. The can be deployed without even touching the ground due to their flight and maglev capabilities and a freelancer makes a good small dropship or deployment vessel for this as seen in the 2016 Gamescom presentation.


They will literally hit the ground running and are expected to be the fastest ground vehicle atm.

The primary ship I would use as a dropship is the Caterpillar. It's armored,has the space for multiple vehicles,and at least a platoon of infantry by default.(3 Ursa Rovers can have 18 men which is a platoon.) It's also modular with it's "boxes" and can add or subtract them as necessary.


These "boxes" could also have different modules in them like an armory,a medical bay or comms equipment so they could function as mobile supply points,hospitals or Field Operating Bases(FOBs). On top of that they have a turret right on top of the forward drop ramp for cover with it's natural fixed or gimballed weapons giving them heavy forward fire support for rapid hot zone deployment.


Even without vehicles inside for various reasons such as non dedicated Caterpillar Dropships our vehicle carrying ships can deploy behind them covered by Caterpillar turrets and infantry to deploy their vehicles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdW0yck_lgo


Assault
First off I absolutely despise Mass Assault Doctrine which is how OPPF generally is expected to operate,but I saw an opportunity to manipulate it based on our ground equipment and assumed numbers. I started off with Mass Assault Doctrine in mind and then looked at our ground equipment which has nearly twice as many seats as we have bodies or more.(Therefore we could use 2 motorized battalions of 1,000 total men if we wish later and not effect this plan.) With this in mind I looked at Mobile Warfare Doctrine since we have the ability to employ it. As a result I came up with a hybrid micro and macro strategy that works hand in hand. Blitzkrieg(I know it's cliche,but it is a pillar of Mobile Warfare doctrine.) and Deep Battle strategies combined in a constant state of Airland Battle Tactics. The basic principle is rapidly deployed swift and sustained violence in deep penetrating offensive actions with land and air operations combined into a seamless whole. Motorized formations supported by endless air strikes and strafing(That we are fully capable of.) are to seize the initiative at the moment of deployment to penetrate and overrun enemy defenses and drive deeply behind their lines and envelope them to be destroyed.

This looks and sounds very complicated,but it is actually simple to employ. With Air Superiority already achieved our ground forces advance with our endless air forces already attacking. When our ground forces make contact and attack the enemy in high speed vehicles our air force is still attacking in Close Air Support(CAS.). When our ground forces engage in close contact which is likely circle strafing on a 2D plane(as seen in the 2016 Gamescome Demonstration.) shooting at each other and in turn actually enveloping a weakened enemy force naturally and without prompting, while CAS is still ocurring. This swift and sustained violence will destroy enemy ground forces in a matter of minutes.

What if there are many of them or there are structures nearby? This is where Deep Battle comes into play. Should there be a time delay on dropships or even greater numbers are required they can catch up to the frontlines as reserves. We have huge potential reserves. Our Dropships are mobile and therefore can advance closer to the frontlines if a great distance between them occurs and even provide fire support via turrets if necessary. As such anything capable of deploying infantry can do so behind the dropships and come to the frontline up close under the afore mentioned Caterpillar turret fire support. This can literally be anyone since we theoretically have thousands in orbit idle at this time. They can be diverted to ground duty if necessary or even constantly shuttled in and out of orbit on the Freelancer or Caterpillar Dropships to keep things simple. These potential reserves if deployed are also naturally funneled into the pockets of resistance we've enveloped on the frontline bearing down an even greater amount of ridiculous firepower as CAS at all times is still operating. The only drawback to the reserves is that they would be on foot according to current plans,but this still shouldn't be too much of a problem since infantry is needed to breach,clear and occupy static fortifications and structures that we're trying to capture.

In the instance of structures or vehicles and structures at the same time our ground vehicles would breakthrough the vehicles or drive up to the structure should there not be enemy vehicles for unknown light defense reasons and deploy infantry immediately before providing fire support from outside or engaging the enemy vehicles they have broken through and driven past, therefore naturally enveloping them as the motorized battalion moves in on this focal point.

This is a Blitzkrieg element known as Schwerpunkt or focal point in which massive concentrations provide overhwleming envelopment and overbearing firepower on a single position and of course CAS is still operating this entire time increasing this reckless,but efficient maneuver. If and when IFVs,AFVs, or MBTs are added they also increases it's efficiency. This will be particularly useful at Armitage.


Conclusion
To sum it all up it's basically a tornado of naturalized unrelenting violence from the ground and air circling everything hostile you see like a shark vomiting bullets,lasers and missiles until it dies. (Sharknado?) This plan can also easily field the ships and vehicles when looking at the asset roster,while not requiring Titan Armor for additional firepower.

Available Pool of Usable Ships and Ground Vehicles currently with this plan. 08/23/2016
Caterpillars-127
Carracks-119-Lynx or Ursa
Connie Aquila-61-Ursa
Connie Phoenix-119-Lynx
Dragonfly-71
Freelancer-361
Freelancer DUR-103
Freelancer Max-63
Total=1,024

Ursa Rover=61(180?) Seats=366(1080?)
Lynx Rover=119(238?) Seats=476(952?)
Dragonfly=71 Seats=142

Total Vehicles=370
Total Seats=984(1222?)
Infantry Capability Assessment=2 Potential Battalions,1 Confirmed

Minimum Necessary Ship Count=136(299 Ursa/Lynx on 100 default Caterpillars and 36 Freelancer MAX with 71 Dragonflies.)
Maximum Necessary Ship Count=370 (1 vehicle per ship.)
Excess Available Ship Count=654-885
  • Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 01:16:41 AM by Jack Knife

  • NKato
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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #1
Most marine assault plans are fairly straightforward: Soften up the enemy, land, engage the enemy, and then slaughter the enemy.
I don't really have any particular criticisms.

  • chigga
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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #2
i would definetely add redeemers for inf deployement. you can use them like hinds.
cutlasses could work too as troop carrier.

when released the prowler could be used for sof to deploy and shut down defenses.(maybe even in combination with dragonsflys for faster movement to target)


  • Jack Knife
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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #3
i would definetely add redeemers for inf deployement. you can use them like hinds.
cutlasses could work too as troop carrier.

when released the prowler could be used for sof to deploy and shut down defenses.(maybe even in combination with dragonsflys for faster movement to target)

All of those ships entail an infantry focus and ignores the usage of our 299 dedicated ground vehicles and EVERY ship in the game has VTOL(Vertical Take Off and Landing) so they can all hover like a Hind and shoot if necessary,but that is a slow large target imo so I prioritized CAS to clear overhead traffic and allow a constant rain of heavy ordnance. This overall is too slow and inefficient for what we want to do with our given manpower,ground vehicles,time, and distance to cover. Additionally our SOF(Special Operations Forces) are actually a Special Forces Wing(SFW) for a covert backline strategic bombing campaign over a period of months leading up to V-Day to reduce Vanduul resources and naval power.
  • Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 12:40:53 AM by Jack Knife

Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #4
What Jack Knife said. We have an ability to vertically envelop ground resistance at a scale never before seen in computer games, and comparable to actual military operations. I did my Master's thesis on the 101st Airborne in the First Gulf War, so I'm somewhat familiar with Air Assault doctrine, and it is far more pertinent to seizing territory from space than the proposed.
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  • mediaflare
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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #5
Very sound post!  I know I've only got about 10 players in my org, but we're all (save 1 logistics pilot) planning on operating in the Cavalry department.

I don't own a Dragonfly, but there's a good chance one will be picked up by the time this mission actually happens.

Unless things change/improve, our current planning has two ships: a Freelancer MIS and a Cutlass Red.

I'll have my Hope stationed much further back in the space combat for assistance, but the plan for us is to outfit the MIS with good Air-Ground missiles and a Dragonfly, and load up on Infantry.  The first shoot will just be the MIS along with any other Cavalry units, dropping in and operating under the Blitz method to secure a better LZ for proceeding landings.

Then from there on out, we'll be travelling the two ships together, dropping off new rounds of infantry and any vehicles/supplies that can fit in the MIS, while the red comes in retrieving any wounded

very very subject to change as the plan grows and we get more supplies, but until 2.6/3.0 and Beta and all that, that's what we're operating on.


In short, After the first landings, my team's main goal is to reinforce the LZ with more men/supplies and medicine.

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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #6
@mediaflare Everything you said except the infantry part would work anywhere within this plan,but the infantry part would work when a static location is being assaulted. The main idea here as a Motorized Battalion(s) is to always be highly mobile and aggressive with ground vehicles shuttling infantry while rapidly gaining ground and overrunning the enemy. Dropping off foot troops without a ground vehicle makes them ~100 ms slower after you already deployed your Dragonfly.
  • Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 04:46:44 AM by Jack Knife

  • mediaflare
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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #7
@mediaflare Everything you said except the infantry part would work anywhere within this plan,but the infantry part would work when a static location is being assaulted. The main idea here as a Motorized Battalion(s) is to always be highly mobile and aggressive with ground vehicles shuttling infantry while rapidly gaining ground and overrunning the enemy. Dropping off foot troops without a ground vehicle makes them ~100 ms slower after you already deployed your Dragonfly.

negative, the dragonfly is only there to breach in my position. it's not like i'm going to be dropping these units off 1km away from battle, i'll be dropping them off within 50-100m of the current objective for the first drop. after that, they'll be dropped off in 'safe' Landing Zones so they can get oriented before walking into death

Based on what kind of "war" we're fighting, I'm operating in the mindset that we're going to fight in a combination of D-Day, and the taking of Pashmul

You'll have to trust that after spending six years with the 101st that I got at least a half-baked idea what I'm trying to get at :P
  • Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 11:27:14 AM by mediaflare

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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #8
To elaborate more:

Since there's no psychological warfare when fighting AI in a video game, I'm assuming the main goal of a Blitz- to overwhelm and cause panic in the lines, isn't going to work. Instead, utilizing the Dragonflies to get behind positions and using heavy weapons to hurt the frontlines is the way I'm going.


Recon units survey the area and designate a possible LZ as close to the frontline of combat as possible, then a few bomber units sweep the area. Heavy casualties, though we'll assume some enemies survive the bombing.

MIS Overwatch comes in hot, firing dumb-fire or other A-G missiles into the surrounding area at any surviving enemies, or to just cause havoc and concealment. MISO drops a Dragonfly crew(with heavy weapon or LMG) and ~6(assuming capacity here) infantry onto the drop-point.

Dragonfly darts forward and circle-strafes a large arc turning back to the LZ, heavy/mg operator firing at anything one would consider a threat, while also drawing attention. The infantry units dig into the surrounding LZ area to eliminate any remaining threats, and prepare to set up and defend the LZ

Once initial drop is successful, MISO returns with more infantry, or if it can fit, an Ursa. Cutlass Red or other medical/infantry ship follows behind MISO, dropping off additional troops, and receiving wounded for evac.


This would work much more smoothly if there were 1-3 other ships doing the same thing in the area, but I'm operating currently with the mindset that my org would be alone on this until things change.  This isn't the plan for the overall battle, just to secure an LZ close enough to the frontlines to kiss the Vanduul on the forehead lol.

  • Jack Knife
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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #9
This is a good example of the difference between the tactical level and strategic level. The way your thinking on a tactical level can work within the strategic level. There are holes in it the moment a ship or vehicle is destroyed since they're not acting independently,but it can still work the way your thinking and that's why we have an armada.

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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #10
This is a good example of the difference between the tactical level and strategic level. The way your thinking on a tactical level can work within the strategic level. There are holes in it the moment a ship or vehicle is destroyed since they're not acting independently,but it can still work the way your thinking and that's why we have an armada.

well duh i'm thinking on the 'tactical' level, I'm only one man with a tiny org; A larger depth to it would be nice, but not much of that initial plan would change

it's a loose operation of a single ship and crew, I'm only talking about what we my org are planning to do. If I were to be commanding an operation with a few dozen or more people, there'd be more flesh to it

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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #11
let's start an actual dialogue now

taking out Tiber will be a whole thing on it's own, but since it's a large factory planet, the grand strategy for ground forces will be much different beast

So what is your opinion; Would it be smarter to have an extended siege on the planet via bombers and orbital bombardments, or to send a few small SF cells in to sabotage and disable?

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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #12
let's start an actual dialogue now

taking out Tiber will be a whole thing on it's own, but since it's a large factory planet, the grand strategy for ground forces will be much different beast

So what is your opinion; Would it be smarter to have an extended siege on the planet via bombers and orbital bombardments, or to send a few small SF cells in to sabotage and disable?

We cannot have an extended siege due to our time table of a weekend,though I would not be surprised if Tiber ended up as a two day effort and a weekend for us becomes defined as Friday,Saturday,Sunday and Monday.

Orbit to ground bombing was already mentioned in the above plan prior to and during the ground invasion and following assaults. Direct orbital bombardments on the other hand are not mentioned as a feature in Star Citizen.

Commando raids would require direct tactical control which we do not have as a whole,but it is possible to convert or retrain troops who have operated in the Special Forces Wing to do this role as they would have already acknowledged OPPF control on a tactical level when they volunteered. In addition sabotage to disable any and all facilities on Tiber would not solve the issue of Vanduul behind us if we take over Orion especially if they have time to repair said facilities in any time table.

I still think the current overt plan with bomber and motorized troop deployments will be more effective due to time constraints and long term goals. However the SFW having a commando role added prior to V-Day could be very beneficial by scouting and raiding the planet. Especially since their primary goal is the crippling of Vanduul logistics and manufacturing capability in preparation for V-Day.

I'd also just like to throw it out there and acknowledge Tiber as a system is likely to be our most difficult fight in space and on Tomb itself.
  • Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 02:45:42 AM by Jack Knife

  • mediaflare
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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #13
okay so not to sound like a dick, but you're pretty committed to your own thing, and have so far only replied to things with a "no that won't work, my way is better" mentality so, like, good job and everything, your OP was pretty fleshed out and interesting, but I'll just back away slowly and continue discussing ideas with others

Good luck, never forgive, never forget
  • Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 03:44:15 PM by mediaflare

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Re: Ground Assault Planning for Objectives Tomb and Armitage
Reply #14
okay so not to sound like a dick, but you're pretty committed to your own thing, and have so far only replied to things with a "no that won't work, my way is better" mentality so, like, good job and everything, your OP was pretty fleshed out and interesting, but I'll just back away slowly and continue discussing ideas with others

Good luck, never forgive, never forget

You wanted a dialogue so I gave my opinion on the subject matter and even stated your point on the viability of commando raids would be a good idea,but sure let's just take a step back, relax and let people come up with alternatives.