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Topic: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015) (Read 7141 times) previous topic - next topic

  • Jack Knife
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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #50
A standardized ranking system to provide an overall command structure would go against how the Operation is Currently set up. We had talked in the past about maybe setting up a branch of OPPF for those who want a more structured system however those ideas never moved beyond discussion. As it stands OPPF is more of a free game operation. As in everyone gets let loose in a grand hunting field and it will be up to the leaders of the orgs involved and the lone wolves participating if they want to hunt down small prey and scavenge for neat things or work together to take down bigger game seeking grander trophies. Itd be better to set up it up more as guidelines for operation than standardized operating procedures.

That being said overall it looks pretty good and would provide the distinction for those roles. Still, that will be our greatest challenge is the large scale coordination for an operation this size without an actual command structure to unify everyone participating under.

And yes, that is a fair point about the UEE fleet lacking carrier support in that battle. Even if they had carrier support though, the description of that particular Kingship leaves me hesitant to believe the UEE would have stood any better a chance.

For anyone wondering what we're talking about. https://operationpitchfork.com/forums/index.php?topic=1749.0

Yes I'm pretty sure I was in that conversation about a dedicated branch for the organization and I'm fully aware of the OPPF Organizational Horde as I stated above with my Hybrid Warfare proposal. These charts would pull 300 people of 4,000 to dedicated units which is a very realistic and possible goal.The point of the ranking system is the Marines and Special Forces will literally be dedicated organized units that OPPF's Command Structure will actually be able to coordinate with authority,hence the small overall numbers aswell.(~650 with both when randoms are added to the Marines.) Having randoms will work for 350 of the 500 Marines,but will not work for the Special Forces as they will literally be operating together possibly months in advance of the operation instead of playing normally in the verse,because they volunteered to.

I can make it rankless so they're just grouped,but you still need people to be in positions of leadership for them to function properly.
  • Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 03:19:51 PM by Jack Knife

Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #51
I still don't see the problem with skirmish tactics, L.

I mean, the whole idea of a skirmish is to engage at maximum range, cause as much damage as you can and retreat before you sustain too much damage yourself. Of course we'll have to adapt this to space warfare, but the concept is still sound, specially when we consider how outgunned we might be if we encounter an enemy carrier group - which hopefully will not be that often.

Here, I have a lot of free time today so I messed around with PhotoShop and cooked this up. Mind you, this is just my interpretation of how it might look so if you have a different thing in mind then by all means share your thoughts and I'll see about making other versions.

Gentlemen, I present you: A Vanduul Carrier Group (Deathcall Version).



There's nothing truly new there, I just copy pasted the ship models, but hopefully I didn't fail too hard in the way I positioned the ships. If it's any help, here's what I used an example:



About those "Maulers", I remember Jack said that they might be the equivalent to current day submarines or stealth ships (he argued that they don't have exposed turrets if I don't remember wrong), but I disagree. After watching this video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPF8ogzZEyw

As you see it seems to have cannons on those tips on the bottom. Also - this might sound like a silly excuse -, "Mauler" isn't precisely a "stealthy" name. But then again, I could be wrong.

Going back to the whole manufacturing issue, I will once more stand by my point. Our manufacturing capabilities are absolutely superior to that of the Vanduul. Current available information is enough to determine this, I don't see how this can even be a matter of discussion. In the entire known space, the 'duuls (currently) only strip mine two planets. The UEE has dozens. Yeah, yeah they might have some home planets somewhere but it's the baddies at our doorstep that worry us and those are nomadic, isolationist, tribe-like people who live on their ships and have to haul their entire society and production lines with them every time they move. How can that compare to the UEE?

Just draw numbers and you'll see there's no reasonable way. USA's current fleet boasts 10 aircraft carriers, nine amphibious assault ships, 22 cruisers, 62 destroyers, 17 frigates and 72 submarines. That's during peace time and just one country. Extrapolate the numbers into a thousand years in the future and multiply it by the amount of production-capable planets in the UEE and there's simply no way the 'duul can keep up. Just in 2015 alone Earth's automotive production was of 89,747,430 units!

The whole ordeal at Vega made no sense to me either. It's the same problem I had in Mass Effect 3 with the Citadel ordeal. Do you know how big a fleet it would require to attack a planet? Hell, it took 4.8 million Zentraedi capital ships to level Earth, and there were still survivors on the surface when they left. How many people live on Aremis? A hundred million? Doesn't seem too farfetched. Suppose 1% of that hundred million have ships that are capable of fighting, that's ONE MILLION ships defending the planet. Say it's 0.1%? That's still A HUNDRED THOUSAND ships ready to fend-off the Vanduul invasion. If 100.000 ships cannot defend from a single Vanduul Carrier Air Group, then - my friends - I think we might as well be re-rolling Xi'an 'cause the humans are all but lost.

In regards to organization, after playing World of Warcraft PVP for nearly 10 years, I think that as long as the plan is sound (and works) people will learn it and follow it when they can. That's how it always was in battlegrounds. AB, hold 3 and defend. AV, kill towers and grab ONLY the last graveyard. Give simple instructions, trust the specific roles to the ones that can do it and let the rest follow along and do what they can.
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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #52
My point of the skirmish tactics isn't that it won't be viable, it is that it would be putting us in a large scale battle for it to be most effective and our forces are rather limited. Then I realize of course that such direct confrontation will end up being unavoidable. However, Jack Knifes ideas of Special Forces running operations against the Vanduul months ahead of time to weaken them may just reduce how thin we will need to spread our own forces. That would allow us to dedicate more forces to large battles. Thus my entire argument on that end is rendered null.

ON the manufacturing front again, if you take a look at the Ark map you can see the Vanduul hold a significant number of known systems, not to mention who knows how many unknowns. Their society may be tribal but tribes can have alliances. Some of them could band together for common goals. Just because their behavior seems primitive we shouldn't assume that they are dumb. If we start attacking them other tribes might support them not wanting to lose whatever valuable foothold they may have gained. It is also possible though other tribes may take advantage of this to gain more status for themselves, so we may want to look for opportunity there.

In Response to Jack Knife, yes that sounds like a solid plan. I understand we will need members in positions of leadership to help organize and direct appropriately but staying rankless beyond that might be best. OPPF after all isn't an actual org as much as an HQ to make coordination for this event easier.

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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #53
Deathcall I think your referring to the bottom artillery cannons like the ones in the two "inner wings". Still that entire ship is unnaturally smooth compared to it's counterparts leaving it open to attack at all angles,but the cannons.I still see no actual turrets anywhere too and it continues to bother me. I still think it's either stealth,those cannons are devastating capital ships killers or possibly both. Additionally I understand the light feeling about "Mauler" not being a stealthy name,but literally all the US Submarines are named after fish and nuclear submarines are named after towns or states.

Like ~L~ was saying having the entire Organizational Horde go into massive scale skirmish tactics can and will be difficult since they are not centrally organized. If you believe that people will fall in line by example(Which is logical.) citing your example in WoW PvP then I say we go ahead with the current Special Forces Wing idea I charted up and discussed with Ogi and ~L~ so we have consistent small scale skirmishes occurring with the Special Forces Wing of which we can post reports,videos,screenshots,etc. on hindering the Vanduul War Machine regardless of their actual manufacturing capacity(Which again will be measured in months of attacks by the Special Forces Wing.) to show the OPPF Organizational Horde that these tactics work. As they notice and we communicate more and more into Beta this will help us sway as many as we can to take our cues and follow in large scale skirmish tactics.

~L~ I'm taking the Standardized Ranks explainations out for our overall purposes,but leaving them in the charts so people actually see who would be going where and listening to whom initially and whom after the "higher rank" dies.

Random statistics about Deathcall's Vanduul Carrier Group.(I love that graphic btw.) 178 ships counted with 5,168 estimated Vanduul.
  • Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 02:29:08 AM by Jack Knife

Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #54
When you look at the wings, the tips look like blades. Makes me wonder if it's supposed to attack with them. Also, the Tomahawk and Hatchet cargo frigates (I suppose they would classify as frigates or corvettes) have rams on the front of the ships.

If you thought a scythe could be bothersome with that little ramming blade of theirs, imagine what those can do...
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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #55
When you look at the wings, the tips look like blades. Makes me wonder if it's supposed to attack with them. Also, the Tomahawk and Hatchet cargo frigates (I suppose they would classify as frigates or corvettes) have rams on the front of the ships.

If you thought a scythe could be bothersome with that little ramming blade of theirs, imagine what those can do...

While I like how cool that would be I'm also terrified by the idea of skyscraper sized ships ramming into things and utterly destroying them especially if they're non-combat based cargo ships.

Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #56
Special Forces Wing idea I charted up and discussed with Ogi and ~L~

Could you remind me what input I gave? I've been in and out (in terms of focus) on the Pitchfork fora, so I very well may have commented on something and then totally forgotten about it. I've historically been very leery about special forces units in player communities.

As for the "months of attack" aspect, I agree entirely. Again, my thinking is framed by my Master's thesis on the First Gulf War, which featured a six-week air campaign before the four-day ground campaign. Again, my assumption was that the main offensive would occur over a weekend, so yes, the run-up does indeed have to be long (very long, as I expect to only get a fraction of the players to participate in the run-up operation. I'd also like to point out that we'd also want to preposition as much fuel, repair supplies, and munitions as possible (or Class III, V, and IX if you want to use jargon) in our staging points (whatever combination of Vega, Nul, and Oberon that we use).

To that effect, I was wondering if there were any plans about finances, or even buying war bonds. I, for one, would happily throw in $50 (which translates to 50,000 UEC) to help defray the costs for the operation as a whole. One Hull-E load of missiles is a hell of a lot more than a bunch of 'lancers, for example, and being able to offer some compensation for recon or strike in the run-up would probably help us get more people participating.

Last, what do we call the start of the main offensive? D-Day is probably the most famous. In the First Gulf, the ground offensive was G-day (and H-hour for hour calculations). Designating like that means we can have better bookends on our operations. If we want to accomplish something seven days before the start of the main offensive, or one day after, we can refer to, say, R (for Revenge, or Reconquest, or whatever) -7 or R+1, respectively.
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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #57
@Ogi_the_Great

-Consistent discussion on skirmish tactics
-Why our current small capital ships would get mulched by a Kingship as opposed to bombers.
-Marine manpower concerns
-War of attrition

I would agree with logistics in the form of Starfarers,Crucibles and whatever the ammo carrier equivalent would be. We however only have a fair number of Starfarers and lack the other two. Based on that the Special Forces Wing is currently designed to allow more in flight time,but not rearm and repair services. This is why the emergency/reactionary force is basically meant to idle around the jump point where units will leave to rearm and repair. This is not ideal,but we currently lack proper assets and numbers of said assets.

Financial backing for the pre-operation raids I'd heavily prefer not to be done with irl money. I'd favor if our members playing the game normally that aren't involved simply donate in game money they're earning to the Special Forces Wing to make their jobs easier down the road as it helps increase their odds of survival when the operation launches.

I used to call it P-Day after Pitchfork,but I'm favoring V-Day atm. V for Vanduul,Vacon,Vengeance, and Victory.
  • Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 11:38:44 AM by Jack Knife

Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #58
I'm really against IRLM to finance the OP. Not only has people spent a lot on this game already but if we manage to obtain any of our strategic objectives then that could mean that we'd need to keep the influx of IRLM to keep our gains, which would be crazy.

With a bit of preparation and proper communication, we should see a big amount of forkers doing pre-op supply runs (not everyone in the OP wants to fight the 'duuls head on).

Also, for you Jack:

It's a penguin... with a gun. I'd run if I were you.

Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #59
@Ogi_the_Great

-Consistent discussion on skirmish tactics
-Why our current small capital ships would get mulched by a Kingship as opposed to bombers.
-Marine manpower concerns
-War of attrition

All of that stuff is mostly in this thread, though, not the SF wing thread (Command Branch Structure Charts, whatever). I searched for myself in that thread and couldn't find my name. I'm just confused.

Quote
I used to call it P-Day after Pitchfork,but I'm favoring V-Day atm. V for Vanduul,Vacon,Vengeance, and Victory.

I thought about P-Day as well, but, guys being guys.....

I was initially opposed to V-Day, since I wanted to "keep" it for Victory in Europe and Victory in Japan Day (VE and VJ Day), but then I had the realization that....it'd be V-Day, as opposed to V-J/VJ or V-E/VE Day.

V-Day it is. Starting at S-Hour.

Nevertheless. My current conception of how the operation will go is raids and recon in Vanduul areas, and propositioning supplies in friendly areas, from the start of the final Beta build to V-Day, with V+1 to V+4 consisting of the combined offensive by the player base.

As somewhat of a quibble, I used the term "raid" rather than "skirmish" because of a key difference in application. In a raid, you attack, and then leave the field entirely. In a skirmish, you attack, and then withdraw from contact with the enemy. You're still on the field, and the lighter skirmishing forces are protected by heavier regular forces. In the run-up, we will not have enough strength to stay in Vanduul areas, grind them down, and avoid decisive contact with the enemy. Come the combined offensive, though, we may be able to do that, and the specific capital ship mechanics will become vital. If memory serves, I don't think the current plan is to have larger ships in the same instances; I recall some comment by CR about cap ships shooting at eachother across instances or the like. So, depending on whether or not we can mass capital ships in the same instance will dictate pretty much everything, I think.

Also, for you Jack:



What the crap is that?
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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #60
That was my point Ogi. Your contributions in this thread's current discussion along with ~L~ resulted in the product that is currently the Special Forces Wing. I like to give credit where it is due.

I have the same conception in mind of the operation aswell atm. As our plans continue to develop I look forward to seeing it more refined and updated to increase our odds of success.

I agree with the raid term,but I've heard nothing of capital ships shooting into different instances though that does sound strangely interesting. What I remember from CR before though was the russian nesting doll effect with instancing. A capital ship is in an instance and other ships inside it are in their own instance within the ship so when they deploy they are in the same instance. This is a force multiplier by instancing making carriers even more critically important.

I also would like to know what the hell that is and why it is for me. It looks like an aircraft carrier transformer punching an alien ship.

Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #61
That was my point Ogi. Your contributions in this thread's current discussion along with ~L~ resulted in the product that is currently the Special Forces Wing. I like to give credit where it is due.

Ohhhhh, I get what you mean. I was, for the life of me, trying to remember contributing to a conversation directly on the SFW idea. I didn't realize what I was saying here was shaping that other discussion. I probably should go check it out then, shouldn't i.

Quote
I agree with the raid term,but I've heard nothing of capital ships shooting into different instances though that does sound strangely interesting. What I remember from CR before though was the russian nesting doll effect with instancing. A capital ship is in an instance and other ships inside it are in their own instance within the ship so when they deploy they are in the same instance. This is a force multiplier by instancing making carriers even more critically important.

Hmm. Player capital ship use will be heavily influenced by specific instance mechanics, which will themself be affected by what CIG can do with the server backend stuff that they've been battling.
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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #62
I also would like to know what the hell that is and why it is for me. It looks like an aircraft carrier transformer punching an alien ship.

What? Really? No Macross love here?

Your guess was pretty good Jack, it IS an alien ship (refurbished by humans) with two arms made out of aircraft carriers punching through another alien ship.

Vanduul don's seem so scary now, do they?
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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #63
Just for some clarification about Spec Ops/Spec Forces. A lot of folks seem to get these confused. Special Forces Units go on Special Operations Missions. but are not the only ones to do so. Tiber Recon Rally can be a form of Spec Ops. The Ops implies an organized mission or goal outside of the main OPPF campaign. Spec Forces denote a special elite group, which most likely will fall down to individual organizations to supply or field to take on those missions as they come up.

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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #64
Just for some clarification about Spec Ops/Spec Forces. A lot of folks seem to get these confused. Special Forces Units go on Special Operations Missions. but are not the only ones to do so. Tiber Recon Rally can be a form of Spec Ops. The Ops implies an organized mission or goal outside of the main OPPF campaign. Spec Forces denote a special elite group, which most likely will fall down to individual organizations to supply or field to take on those missions as they come up.

The SFW goal is outside the main OPPF Campaign. It is intended to be months of opportunistic attacks on the Vanduul logistical lines as a primary target and any and all assets capable of destruction as a secondary target leading up to V-Day in order to theoretically lessen the Vanduul forces we would face since ships would need to be manufactured as stated in the game universe and even if they magically just spawn in it gives us experience and intel over time which helps us. Separate reconnaissance is likely to occur,but not currently discussed anywhere I've seen and is the responsibility of the branch lead. The SFW is designed to be independently capable of recon mostly for targeting purposes. As for the SFW most likely falling down to individual organizations we found a logical answer in a similar manner. Originally it was linear,but I broke it down into ship type priority levels in each branch for people to walk in and join,because people have lives and Orgs are likely to do their own thing inside the UEE like establish bases etc. and it's unlikely they'll ever go into Vanduul systems on their own until V-Day.

Combat Example: Tomahawk Cargo Ship with destroyer and fighter escort. The Tomahawk is the primary target and we'd formulate a plan to isolate it or hit it from an angle that is less risk imposing then flee and mop up any fighters chasing us too to deny further albeit small war assets of the Vanduul from operating,but if we at the time posess sufficient firepower we would eliminate the entire convoy not just the Tomahawk.

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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #65
The SFW will only really work if CIG gets the persistence system fully integrated for the Vanduul- you know that whole you kill a ship, any ship but in this case a Scythe, then it's gone forever and it has to be literally replaced rather than just respawned. Probably not a big issue since this will be happening in Beta and I'd think CIG would only go into beta when they thought stuff like that was five by five. Still if they don't outright say it we should ask about that sort of thing before starting the SFW. What good is back-line bombing and recon if the Vanduul aren't actually done. Again probably not an actual problem but just something that occurred to me.

Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #66
I would argue that OP as a whole will not work if the Vanduul are not governed by the persistence system. Victor Vanduul need to stay dead if we're going to retake Orion.
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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #67
I would argue that OP as a whole will not work if the Vanduul are not governed by the persistence system. Victor Vanduul need to stay dead if we're going to retake Orion.

Yes this is a concern I've brought up before. Considering the Vanduul have actual supply ships and ground supply bases they connect to for resources I would say it will be implemented. Likely not immediately,but definitely midway through at the very least since the UEE will be their primary concern for development. If for some reason they did not implement it this would be a waste of game assets and literally impossible to defeat the Vanduul which is game breaking so everything points against it.

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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #68
Phase 0 - Create the OPPF Think Tank
Create the cartography think group.
Create the supply and logistics think group.
Create the space combat think group.
Create the ground combat think group.
Create the tactics and strategy think group.
Create the communications and command think group.

Too many groups, IMO. Try consolidating Cartography with Supply & Logistics, Space Combat with Ground Combat, and Tactics & Strategy with Communications & Command.

You end up having only three think-tank groups.

Personally, I feel like this plan is a little too complicated. Lots of steps.

Additionally, I feel that focusing on Tiber as a first step may be a significant error, given the vast majority of our resources will be able to access medium jump points. Prioritizing large jump points may be a mistake.

My view, in a simplified form is this:

  • Establish forward bases in Oberon and Vega.
  • Scout the routes to Orion and Tiber, obtain intel on those systems.
  • Instead of focusing on a major assault Tiber, focus on hit-and-run ops in Tiber to tie up/sap the Vanduul resources.
  • Concurrent to the hit & run ops in Tiber, secure Orion and establish a garrison there.
  • Build up forces in Orion, Oberon, and Vega.
  • On The Promised Day, initiate full assault from Vega to Tiber, while running a diversionary op from Orion and Oberon.

Basically what I'm saying is that Pitchfork doesn't have the luxury of larger, persistent capital ships, and so should leverage their advantage instead: medium sized ships. There are a lot of single-seater fighters, as well as medium multicrew ships. Additionally, Kingships are absurdly huge, and so would suffer from Trench Run Disease, meaning that they would not have the capability to fully defend against dedicated fighter assaults.

The most important thing I'm going to share with you is this quote:

Quote
No plan survives first contact with the enemy.

Improvisation will be key.


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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #69
Cartography falls under intel and recon,logistics is seperate,space and ground are seperate, Strategy,tactics and C&C is already combined. We moved away from that initial concept a year ago.

1.-Already planned.
2.-SFW and intel units are doing this.
3.-SFW again
4.-A force such as you described would not make an impact from Orion it would be too small. If anything the SFW would fit the mark,but to get to Orion one must travel through Caliban or Tiber first making it impractical from the start.
5.-Take Orion out and we've already planned that.
6.-Take Orion out again and we have similar plans. A Diversionary Operation has been debated due to forces being split.

In addition we're not planning mainly around our capital ships. They more or less are going to be used as logistical stations to cover the utilitatarian ships until called upon from our other plans you may or may not have read. We're also using bombers not fighters against capital ships as fighters are grossly ineffective in comparison and it would only increase the casualty rate.

Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #70
In addition we're not planning mainly around our capital ships. They more or less are going to be used as logistical stations to cover the utilitatarian ships until called upon from our other plans you may or may not have read.

I'm pretty sure Deathcall is stridently in favor of using our Idris, Javelins, and Polaris assets in the main effort. I mean, I agree with you totally that they should not be the main effort, but the issue of where to put the bigger ships hasn't been settled yet.

Quote
We're also using bombers not fighters against capital ships as fighters are grossly ineffective in comparison and it would only increase the casualty rate.

Solid affirm here.
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Re: Commander Deathcall's Battle Plan (2015)
Reply #71
I'm pretty sure Deathcall is stridently in favor of using our Idris, Javelins, and Polaris assets in the main effort. I mean, I agree with you totally that they should not be the main effort, but the issue of where to put the bigger ships hasn't been settled yet.

Yes and the main problem with that is our bigger ships are screening ships which are on the small end of the capital ship spectrum. They'll be quite useful in fighter suppression though which is why I advised they be used as a follow up force pushing through fighters after bomber strikes on a Vanduul flank in this thread. https://operationpitchfork.com/forums/index.php?topic=1819.0