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Topic: Revised plans with the new star map (Read 4094 times) previous topic - next topic

Revised plans with the new star map
NOTE: Due to discussion, my position has changed, and is sketched out in reply #17 of this thread.

If you haven't looked at it: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap?camera=39.16,-70.55,0.2452,0,0

A few new systems have been added, and connections have been changed. Jump point widths have also been added. The long and the short is that the Nul-Caliban-Orion axis looks even more alluring now. However, it should be renamed to Nul/Oberon-Caliban-Orion axis now.

Both Nul and Oberon appear to be lawless systems that do not have a standing Vanduul presence. Thus, if we establish our Forward Operating Bases (FOBs) there, we can take advantage of the Oberon-Caliban Medium-sized jump point and the Nul-Caliban Small-sized jump point to catch any Vanduul forces in Caliban in a pincer maneuver. From there, it is just a matter of transiting via the Caliban-Orion Medium-sized jump point.

At our option, holding/raiding forces could be dispatched to lock down Vanduul forces in the Virgil system (via the Oberon-Virgil Large-sized jump point) and in Tiber itself (via the Medium-sized Oberon-Tiber jump point), but I think that may end up as a dilution of our combat power. Nevertheless, since we can't bring our Large-sized ships with us via Calibam-Orion, they can deploy to Oberon, and threaten Virgil (and Tiber, by proxy).
  • Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 07:29:22 AM by Ogi_the_Great
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #1
There  also other connections we can exploit like the Banu trade-lane network... I can't say much more at this point without compromising Sources & Methods, but I've been working up concepts for an op to hit DEEP behind Vanduul lines. :)
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #2
Banu method won't work,because the UEE would not be able to move into Orion. They need a clear line of settlement and securement.

So the route is likely going to be Oberon,Virgil,Tiber,Orion now. We need to make new plans for Virgil since it was moved in front of Tiber with a large jump point.
  • Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 01:00:35 PM by Jack Knife

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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #3
Not for the main thrust, but it would allow some of Pitchfork's capitals to move on Orion from behind and pincer while the Imps come in the front door. :)

Or do Harassment and Diversion raids against nearby other Vanduul systems... I can't give details, and it's a long detour with some extra-long jumps, but I think we on the Cartography Team have a backdoor way in.
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #4
I hope whatever the cartography team is planning is good cause I just did an assessment of that map, and long detour seems to be a bit of an understatement.

Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #5

I hope whatever the cartography team is planning is good cause I just did an assessment of that map, and long detour seems to be a bit of an understatement.


Yeah. Hoping for a super-secret route or some such is laughable. The guys we're "playing" against have built the game. We won't be able to surprise them with terrain.

Oberon-Virgil-Tiber-Orion will let us bring our large craft into play, sure, but it is also an extra jump transition, and throws us against the Vanduul's main strength in a system where UEE battlefleets have been shattered. I think it's a fool's errand, and will lead to our defeat.

Sure, we may need to launch spoiling attacks on Virgil and Tiber (to secure our flank) where we could use our large ships, but....do we even know what size restrictions there are on the jump points yet? Its fairly obvious that all the single-seaters can fit through a Small jump point. Obviously, you need a Large jump point to handle a Bengal-class carrier. What can go through a Medium-sized jump point? How does your calculus change if escort ships, like frigates and destroyers, can transit a Medium-sized jump point?

Honestly, the bulk of our power, both in terms of numbers and in firepower, is in smaller craft. Our frigates and destroyers are just icing on the cake. We will win this through employment of smaller craft, not through employment of our escort ships against Vanduul capital ships.

The best route is Oberon/Nul-Caliban-Orion. It is far more sustainable in terms of logistics, shorter, and doesn't take us through the main strength of the enemy forces. If you want to splatter against the Vanduul like bugs against a windshield, be my guest, but don't take the combat strength we will need to accomplish the objective of taking and holding Orion.
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #6
Trust me, you'll see... I'd give details, but like I said to do so would compromise Sources & Methods, and might provoke yet ANOTHER total map redesign.

Let's just say that there's a lot the ARK map doesn't show, and leave it at that for now. Remember, there are around 20 unknown systems being seeded for players to discover, just for one?

Oh, by the way, if you have anything less than 32GB of RAM in your system don't even bother trying to load their map unless your browser is the only open program--my loaner laptop only has 16 and ARK brought it to its knees.
  • Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 08:32:55 AM by Diamondback
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #7
DB has a point. We should leave it to the cartography team for now until we can safely get more details without causing another dramatic redesign. One we can start messing openly with the official data we can determine the best options for us. Until then we should continue to be patient and keep focus on planning other areas that are more solid to work with right now.

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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #8
Frankly, I'd like any such discussion to be in a password-protected, Forker-eyes-only subforum as a counter-counterintelligence measure.
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #9
Sadly you know we can't do that as that is not how this OP is run. Everything here is supposed to be transparent and we must keep to that. It is a good policy for this OP and all involved.

Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #10
As ~L~ said, all strategic discussion is public.

Realistically speaking, until we actually discover those jump points and make them public, they may as well not exist.

Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #11

As ~L~ said, all strategic discussion is public.

Realistically speaking, until we actually discover those jump points and make them public, they may as well not exist.


Yyyuuuup. Also, again, CIG is going to be designing stuff. We won't be able to surprise them with terrain (which includes jump points).
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #12
From a logistical standpoint:

First of all, I like how you point out that we don't know the size limit of the Medium Jump Points. It is something to keep in mind. But that would mean Hull E's could also use Med-JPs, and I'm not sure they can. Otherwise why make the difference between Large and Medium JPs if every player flying anything larger than a Connie can just use medium ones? Would be nice if that were the case, but we shouldn't count on it ;)
------
Part of the problem is the fact that Nul and Oberon ARE lawless systems. Meaning NPC Pirates interfering and requiring elimination by anyone that has legal reputation (or even a vying pirate NPC faction) , let alone the PMCs, Bounty Hunters, ect. One of the goals has always been that we won't necessarily know the difference between NPC and PC on sight. That could pose real problems when OPPF Pirate players see OPPF Lawful players shooting down unlawful ships. Or damaged lawful OPPF ships being lost to Pirate NPCs while returning to the FOB, and adding to tensions if we can't identify them as NPCs.

Another is that we can't tell NPCs that we're doing whatever for OPPF and would they mind not bothering us if we don't have good reputation with them (unlawful rep which defeats the purpose for lawful players). Nor will Pirate Players be willing to harm their reputation escorting legal shippers from friendly (to them) NPC's. Plus lawfuls have to be careful about "supplying pirates" and taking a reputation hit during our logistical buildup.

Then there is that little snag of the Nul-Caliban JP being small. Probably only the Vanguard and maybe the Cutlass (Hull's A/B haven't really had their fuel range specified yet, but can be assumed to be shorter while the new Freelancer may be too big now) are both small enough and have the fuel capacity enough to reach Oberon/Orion from Nul. Assuming there is fuel at the destination. There is no refueling base in Caliban for the short range craft, and Starfarers and Caterpillars are a bit too big for that Jump Point. In order to launch an Unlawful Org's attack from Nul, Caliban would have to be at least partially secured in the first place to meet the larger refueling and supply ships.

Unlawful Pitchforkers could probably set up a FOB in Oberon, but to be practical the vast majority of that material would have to come through Vega on the major transports, which the unlawfuls would not really have a good time doing. In fact this is probably part of what will eventually happen, and requiring our more smuggler inclined folks to run those supplies that final jump along with a little subterfuge among the lawful shippers. But that will be part of the fun on logistics.

Even if Oberon is not a 'Pirate' system (which I question obviously) what is the likelyhood of a major Vanduul raid on Oberon while we build up? Even if the planet itself is not hit, Tiber is right next door and you said it yourself that attacking Tiber is 'foolish' because of all the heavy Vanduul forces there. A further risk of large Vanduul vessels intercepting our supply workhorses heading to an Oberon FOB. A lawful FOB in Vega and an unlawful FOB in Nyx would be more secure, and we're going to have to bring our logistical infrastructure with us anyway. To supply a FOB in Nyx, OPPF Lawfuls would only have to 'lose' some cargo, perhaps because they 'found' some better cargo that someone else in a 'disabled' ship just happened to drop, thus avoiding a reputation hit for supplying pirates. They have to go through Nyx anyway to supply Vega or Oberon.

If folks choose a more 'united front' plan, this opens up a rendezvous in Virgil so that unlawfuls can avoid Vega via Nyx yet meet a mobile and heavily guarded supply train in Vanduul space where UEE/legal NPCs (bounty hunter and Advocacy) doesn't have reporting eyes for those legitimate rep hits, and less chance of pirate NPC leading to friendly fire confusion. If it happens in Vanduul space, it didn't happen ;) Also the lawfuls can stage in Vega and not deal with unlawful NPCs screwing things up. All we have to worry about is the Vanduul :)
  • Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 10:02:13 AM by Andy_H

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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #13
I like the diversified FOBs by alignment,because it also adds formations flanking Vanduul fleets when they converge and rally. Honestly I have doubts people would care about reputation alignment since we could all be branded as participants in an illegal action by the UEE. I've already accepted my fate.

Additionally the fuel concerns tie in with the "Box" system for instancing which makes large ships necessary to carry smaller ones for more ships to be used inside an instance. The logistics division also helps with fuel(and ammo.) concerns. The necessity of large ships due to the box system cannot be ignored and should be factored into the JP issues since it does heavily factor into operational forces in an instance. (Short version is the Swarm Tactic of a bunch of small ships actually makes us smaller and less effective when we have large ships available since a large ship still only counts as 1 ship even if it has 10 inside of it.)
  • Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 05:26:52 PM by Jack Knife

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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #14
We won't be able to surprise them with terrain... however, part of the code for each Jump Point is who knows about it in-game--one flag each for Banu, Human, Pirate, Vanduul and Xi'an. (As I shorthand it, a "BHPVX" jump is known to everybody, "HPs" are UEE and Pirate only (typically farther into Human space than most aliens go, and lots of jumps on the northeast border are "HPX" or "BHPX"--Human, Pirate, Xi'an with or without Banu.)

We won't be able to surprise any CIG PC's who step in, but we *can* catch NPCs with their pants down. Sometime tomorrow, I'll post the code for a sample jump point from an older code-drop and we'll tear apart what all the XML code flags mean and how it works. And we CAN surprise them with how fast we learn where the points are... *wink wink nod nod*
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #15
It's nice to finally have something fresh to be planning around for sure though, regardless.

Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #16
Well, if this map left something clear it's that there's most likely a hidden high-capacity jump point "shortcut" leading to Earth that hasn't been discovered (by humans at least).

When we consider how the downfall of Earth has been advertised by CR and look at the map, it's obvious that no such thing can happen by a normal approach. Though Sol is easily reachable from Vanduul space, the shortest route (3 jumps) only allows small ships through it. It'd be impossible for the Vanduul to tackle down Sol without their capital units, and in order to bring those along, they have to fly through 7 systems... including Vega which is very militarized and others which most likely won't be a walk in the park.

The natural outcome of this analysis is that there must be an undiscovered route either linking directly to Sol (or close) from Vanduul space or frontier UEE systems. As to why this jump has remained hidden for so long even though these systems have been colonized for centuries... perhaps it's a one way jump... who knows.

Still, definitely something to keep in mind.
  • Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 02:13:52 PM by Commander Deathcall
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #17
There may be an undiscovered jump point, sure, but we can only plan with knowns.

Still, the thing that jumps out at me is that we have a catch-22. Without Tiber, Orion is not secure. However, trying to take Tiber may spell our doom, because if its chewed up and spat out UEEN fleets, it'll do worse to us.

So, now I'm getting back to what I was proposing way back when: A two-axis attack. The primary axis, with about 75% of our forces, will go through the Nul/Oberon-Caliban-Orion axis. The secondary axis, consisting of the remaining 25%, will proceed via Oberon/Vega-Virgil-Tiber. The secondary axis will serve as a holding force to pin the Vanduul forces in Tiber down, and the primary axis will swiftly secure Caliban and Orion, and then join with the secondary axis in attacking Tiber.

This will allow us the best chance of accomplishing our objective (the liberation of Orion), and of securing it in the long term.
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #18
To be honest, with the current data we have, I agree with Ogi right now. The Vanduul have the numbers and the tech and we can't plan to take them all head on as that really would be suicide. However, I also think we could probably cause enough distraction in Tiber with less than 25%. Something I will need to really look into calculating I guess when I am actually settled in on the 27th (hopefully) from this move I am in the middle of.

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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #19
To be honest, with the current data we have, I agree with Ogi right now. The Vanduul have the numbers and the tech and we can't plan to take them all head on as that really would be suicide. However, I also think we could probably cause enough distraction in Tiber with less than 25%. Something I will need to really look into calculating I guess when I am actually settled in on the 27th (hopefully) from this move I am in the middle of.

As I mentioned in another thread. This is OPPF as it stands right now. Over the Beta we will grow and undoubtedly have upgraded to bigger better ships and supporting orgs will bring more cap ships into the fold as well.

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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #20
The other thing to remember is that jump points CAN change size--they're coded with both a "Current" and a "Maximum", and as of the last code-drop I analyzed there were very few cases of "Current < Max"--enough to count on one hand with fingers to spare--though there  was actually one case of "Current  > Max", leading me to expect that JP to collapse down a little after SQ42.
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #21
That is.....extremely interesting, DB. Would you care to elaborate?
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #22
As I've stated before in other threads, the Caliban approach is by no means easier than the Tiber one. Both systems are heavily populated by the Vanduul and their war machine.
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #23
That is.....extremely interesting, DB. Would you care to elaborate?

OK, we're going to look at a code snippet from 1.1 as an example--in this case, we'll be looking at the Nul JP in Caliban.
Quote
<EntityPrototype Name="Caliban.JumpPoints.Nul" SubLibrary="" Id="{1518B4B6-8ADD-49AF-A05B-67A24102204E}" Library="Systems_Caliban" Class="SC_JumpPoint" Description="Jump Point">
  <Properties bActivateWithUseButton="0" celestialBodyType="jump_point" descText="Jump Point" destStart="Nul.JumpPoints.Caliban" destSystem="Nul" DimX="100" DimY="100" DimZ="100" distance="1" bEnabled="1" EnterDelay="0" entityType="1" ExitDelay="0" esFactionFilter="" heliocentricLat="-20.1651" heliocentricLong="157.603" bInVehicleOnly="0" jumpPointCurrentSize="1" jumpPointLevel="none" jumpPointMaxSize="1" jumpPointType="uee" bKillOnTrigger="0" knownToBanu="0" knownToHumans="1" knownToPirates="1" knownToVanduul="1" knownToXiAn="0" object_Model="objects/default/primitive_sphere.cgf" bOnlyAI="0" bOnlyMyPlayer="0" bOnlyOneEntity="0" bOnlyPlayer="1" OnlySelectedEntity="None" bOnlySpecialAI="0" PlaySequence="" ScriptCommand="" secFaction="uee" secLevel="0.9" bTriggerOnce="0" UsableMessage="">
  <MultiplayerOptions bNetworked="0" bPerPlayer="0"/>
  <Physics Density="-1" Mass="-1" bPhysicalize="0" bRigidBody="1"/>
  <AdditionalArchetypeProperties PrototypeMaterial=""/>
  </Properties>
  <ObjectVars OutdoorOnly="0" CastShadow="1" CastShadowMinspec="1" LodRatio="100" ViewDistRatio="100" HiddenInGame="0" GlobalInSegmentedWorld="0" RecvWind="0" RenderNearest="0" NoStaticDecals="0" CreatedThroughPool="0" ShowHideUsingTimeOfDay="0" VisibleFrom="0" VisibleTo="0"/>
 </EntityPrototype>
What does all this mean?
Entity Prototype and /EntityPrototype are the tags that open and close the code for the item.  There's a lot of stuff that doesn't concern us or I don't know how to read, but... "heliocentricLat" and "heliocentricLong" are the X/Y coords on a 2d map. "jumpPointCurrentSize" is the current size, which leads me to believe it's intended to be adjustable by script or patch, while "MaxSize" is the upper limit. The "knownTo___" flags are which cultures have the jump coords in their nav charts. And then we get into a lot more gibberish that concerns the game engine more than us.

I don't remember which code drop or which system, but I distinctly recall seeing one somewhere that was coded for Current Size 3 but Max Size 2.

That help? :)
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #24
Thank you. I wonder if there is a mechanism to "lever" the JP wider, but perhaps at the cost of closing it for an extended period of time after the transit. Meh, speculation.

Nevertheless, the jump points may be in flux, which will change our strategic orientation drastically. So, its more "wait and see"

.....though I'm still maintaining that the two-axis approach is the way to go.
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #25
Lore does point to a Jump that collapsed in the middle of a system terraforming, with no idea what happened to the people there--probably dead after being cut off from supplies is my guess, so if the jump ever reopens we'll either find at best a dead system or at worst Zompocalypse IIIIIIIN SPAAAAAAAACE...
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #26
Unlikely, with ships that can house livestock and green house gardens... Most likely those fellas are still alive and kicking.
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #27
It's worth investigating at the very least just to see what happened even if we need to send an exploration team the long way on a "scenic" mission.

Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #28
Unlikely, with ships that can house livestock and green house gardens... Most likely those fellas are still alive and kicking.

They've been eating each other and whatever they can get their hands on forever. They are now Reavers.
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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #29
Now that would be rather exciting actually. Almost wish I could volunteer for that investigation. Too bad I am going to be busy with other things. I have experiments to run, there is research to be done on the Vanduul who are still alive.

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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #30
Now that would be rather exciting actually. Almost wish I could volunteer for that investigation. Too bad I am going to be busy with other things. I have experiments to run, there is research to be done on the Vanduul who are still alive.

Very sneaky lol :P

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Re: Revised plans with the new star map
Reply #31
I made a post on another thread about this and searching the star map if we wish to take orion we must take a system with a large jump point... Most people are going to be using smaller ships but those coming in with an Idris should in no way be discounted... Those are the battleships of the time period and potentially even smaller craft carrier since we don't know what the fuel and range of our smaller craft will be. Sure most ships have a quantum drive but how far can that get us? across a single star system?

What are we gonna do if we use the oberon, virgil, tiber orion approach where we have to cross 3 whole system with no refueling and in heavy vanduul territory. In order to make a push in onto Orion the fleets must take Virgil!!! Economically and logistically that's the only real possibility... Once virgil is under control we can run raids and scouting mission into tiber of small stealth fighter wings... no more than 2 Hornet ghosts jumping in doing a scan and running back out to plan the next move.

Why Virgil? The planet was a major terraformed world, tropical climate producing plant life food for the uee and was used by the elites as a vacation spot. Depending on what is left of the planet and surrounding infrastructure and potential for derelict stations around the planet this could be a huge boost in staging area before tiber. Tiber would need to be crossed right down the middle between jump points.... This is a huge hurdle. Strategically speaking Orion may be out of range for the end of the beta but if we get one system up and running and set up for a war of attrition we could make a move on it in the future.