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Topic: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF (Read 2206 times) previous topic - next topic

  • chigga
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CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
hi,
i'm new to oppf and this forum, but still i'd like to voice a few ideas/concerns, to help make oppf a success.

so far i grant you this oppf has amassed an extremly impressive fleet, but to be succesful there's more.

CONCERNS

1.Funding

so far, have to admit i wasn't very thorough, i havn't found anything on how this op will be funded.
the military is funded through taxes, pmc through their contracts and orgs fund their paramilitary wing through trade, etc.

of course i realize that before day v-day not all assets of oppf fleet will be required. still scouts & trainings & mfaps need to be funded.
i realize there is a bounty on vanduul, but we don't know how large it is and SWACS/supply and to a certain degree s&r wouldn't be able to profit from it.

i have some doubts as well if this money would suffice to restore a derelict cruiser, not speaking of a derelict carrier.

atm oppf appears to me like early roman/greek attempts at military, where war was privately funded e.g. everyone paid for their own equipment.

sure you can negate this especially with larger ships, but you can't ignore the fact that this op need some serious cash.

depending on game mechanics/ possible crafting resources will be important as well.


2. Training/Structure

Above i mentioned how negate the personal finacial disavantage, by serving on larger ships, or flying other players surplus ships.

but to to so effectively, especially in combat, you need to train. therefore imo it is imperative that oppf command gets people assigned to flights, squadrons,...., in order for them to be able to train working together on larger vessels, as well as flying a surplus vessel, they were given for v-day.

the challenge here is obvious: you need to assign people in a manner/establish communication, so that everyone can get a ship suited to what they want/ are assigned to do, while assigning them to a group which would profit most from this ship.

to operate effectively training sessions (raids) would need to be organised, resulting in expenses for fuel, ammo and repairs.

3. MFAP

the idea is definietly a good one, BUT:

1. mfap personel/material needs to be in proprtion to scouts, or whatever is deployed in their ao
   a. the same rule applies to s&r teams
2. mfap need to be protected
   a. from vanduul
   b. from opportunistic individuals, who might see them as a chance to get a starfare, etc.

this would generate new expenses obviously, increasing the importance of 1.

4. Resources

as mentioned in 1. resources might be important, fuel certainly will be, as well as the materials necessary to repair a damaged vessel. a starfarer fleet might negate fuel problems completely or at least to a certain degree, but without numbers to prove this, i wouldn't build a strategy on this.
which again would increase the funding problem, since fuel will be required, as well as resources to repair damaged ships and i doubt they'll come free.


IDEAS

1. Funding

this could be solved, by professional vanduul hunting/paying a org tax on your vanduul bounties.
another more promising, but more difficult to realize, option would be to transform oppf/integrate into oppf some trade&industry elements that generate profit for the org/pay an org tax on their profits.

or simply a general org tax, though i would only resort to this in the most dire circumstances.


2. Training

People need to be trained, be it on working together on mc ships, flying surplus ones or simply communication between all elemnts of oppf. this better start asap
doing training raids on vanduul could generate some income as well.

3. MFAP

a mfap in uee territoy is ideal. security is guaranteed, at almost no expense. this would work for vega, as well as for garron.

scouts to caliban would require the mfap to be stationed in nul, which would make the mfap, especially with s&r gone, sitting ducks. therefore i would recommend guarding it, and moving it to croshaw once the deployment is complete.

STRATEGY

here are some ideas for strategy. my ideas here are based on intel from mobiglas (date: 12.04.15), therefore some of them might get obsolete/change, when new intel is released.

1. Recon

for the first recon ops i would recommend tiber.
1. the debris should make hiding very easy=good for SWACS
2. larger enemy vessels have a disadvantage
3. potential HVT, to hit vanduul economy
4. MFAP can be based in uee territory only 1 jump away

same applies to vendetta (MFAP in kellog), though i don't know if 1-3 apply there as well.

scout runs to caliban should be set up only in later stages, unless there is a way to broker some agreement with the criminal orgs, tha probably will settle there. though the vanduul would still remain a larger threat to a MFAP, than in kellog, garron, or virgil (to scout/raid virgil)

2. The Banu

lore suggests that the banu trade with some vanduul tribes. mobiglass map suggests, that the banu have an outpost behind vanduul territory. in order to get there they would either require free pasage, or a jump point(s) from their territory to #11 outpost.
my guess is, a humanoid player with ties to uee would be attacked, even if in the banumm (still it should be tried), so the way i see to explore this possibility is through researching banu territory and working as banu escort for trade runs into vanduul territory.

edit: jump point confirmed in new map = priority

3. Vanduul realism

1. in later stages of scouting, it was suggested to have HOT Recon. the same principle could  work system wide e.g. 10 vanduul ships are in the game world, spread over 5 systems. one system gets hit another one dispatches 1 ship, leaving only 1 ship to defend it.
researching this is imperative imo

2. as already suggested multiple times: respawn rate, combat impact on economy, etc.

3. the vanduul are organised in clans, depending how this is realized in the game, might open up new strategies, as well as perhaps explain banu passage=protection of the dominant clan.

4. how do the vanduul behave, do they deploy their assets, or are they static in a system.
how do raids work?

a. units that spawn randomly in uee border territory

b. units that actually jump from a vanduul occupied system, thus lowering their effective strenght there

5. what is the max overall limit of vanduul units, per instance/ in the game

6. how long does it take before this number is replenished, due to casualties

4. Instancing

It is imperative to find out how this works, in order to have a healthy balance of ships in the instances on v-day.

5. Sol Detachement

i read somewhere you plan on having this. personally i don't think this will be necessary, atleast until v-day.

1. through scouting we should know when the vanduul try to hit us, between sol and vanduul space there will be MFAPs and UEE bases, which should buy enough time to spread the word, and mount a defensive.

2. on v-day it depends on the strategy
  a. all in: throw everything we have at the vanduul
  b. cautious: leave a reserve ready to defend sol, through i would recommend moving it closer to vanduul space, in order to provide cover for survivors, should oppf go south. together with the survivors return to sol and make a last stand.

if you intended to cap a station in this (sol) area to use as supply station, or sth else thats a good idea, still i would advise to have only a minimal amount of assets, required to run/defend it, stationed there.



IMPORTANT: OPPF needs to get as many people as possible to complete SQ42 "The sacked event trigger will depend on the SQ42 completions; the Vanduul invasion will get pushed back the more people that completes SQ42."

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/103019/squadron-42-star-citizen-feature-list/p1


sources: http://mobiglas.com/StarMap/
              https://robertsspaceindustries.com/


well that has been all that came into my mind right now. gonna update this thread, when something new pops up/or someone has another good suggestion. i'm sure most of what i wrote has already been discussed before, but during my quick search i didn't find anything including all of this, so i made this thread. feel free, to add stuf, comment/criticize or delete/close, should this be a unnecessary double.

in my defense: there was this annoying thing forcing me to open a thread to prove i'm human :S

chigga

  • Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 04:20:09 PM by chigga

  • Diamondback
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #1
See this map that Marcus worked up based on my decoding the v1.1 XML (working on decoding the latest):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k80b2rttf05usuk/Starmap%20based%20on%20diamondback%27s%20data.png?dl=0

There's an Unknown system between Sol and Nul--I'd say our very first move should be to find and secure it. If you ever played Freelancer, make any inhabitable planet in there our version of the Order's hidden base on Planet Toledo. Possibly same with that Unknown system out in Vanduul space that connects to Adilan (see below).

2. Long-range jumps. If our folks on the Eastside can transit Xi'An Space, there's a Jump Point in their Tayac system that leads straight into Vanduul Caliban. I would suggest that some part of a move on Caliban come through this JP. Also, if we can get to Triese/Trise/(sp.) in southern Banu space, that system has a jump to Adilan, a Banu system that gives us a backdoor into Orion. Prime place to park a FARP (sorry, I'm using the RL term, "Forward Arming/Refueling Point"--in the hit on Bin Laden this was two Chinooks turned into flying gas-cans) since there's a quick withdrawal back through Triese, Gliese and Branaugh to UEE Space.
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #2
Mm...

These are my thoughts:

C.1.:

I'm guessing most individuals will fend for themselves in regards to gearing up. While organizations can (and probably will) help their members, like any other game, most of your things will come from your own efforts. This means that people will get their funding through in-game mechanics like running missions for NPCs or trying their hand at trading. Since there's no class system, a person can gear up through any means he finds attractive (combat oriented or not) and still provide support to the Operation.

C.2.:

Sadly we are on the same issue here. People will play by themselves (or in their own groups) a lot before and during the Operation. This means that training will happen outside the spectrum of the Operation itself. Getting funds will also be part of this since whichever way you choose to follow to rack up your credit account will provide you with experience in that area (fighting, hauling, mining, etc.)

You refer to capital ships as if they were plenty but I'd bet that most people who already own capitals have a group of people with whom they intend to play and who will be manning them. While exchange programs are possible, it would be probably handled in Org level agreements within parties, not Operation level.

The Operation COs don't exert that kind of control over members, and probably never will.

C.3&4.:

It has been argued before that the supply line towards Vanduul space is as important as the fight itself. It still depends on how the game will handle resources though, since we have no actual idea if fuel will "depleted" at a certain space port or how long it takes for resources to "refresh". Realistically, the radio of combat ships to support ships would be staggering. Specially if we can't acquire basic things like ammo and fuel (not to mention food and other necessities, which I doubt will be included in the game no matter how realistic CR wants it to be).

Again, there's people who are looking forward to this aspect of the Operation and want to do just this. Still, OPPF is loosely organized so other than some minor coordination I don't see much we can do about it.

In regards to your ideas, I believe all of my previous thoughts apply.

In regards to your strategy, there's a BUNCH of of them out there. Everything is up to consideration I'd say.

You have to keep in mind three things:

1. OPPF is not strictly organized. It's more "point me where to go" than "tell me what to do".
2. The game mechanics will vary our strategy greatly. Starting with supplies and Vanduul fleet size and "respawns". It might even be impossible to clear out a system depending on how the developers make the game.
3. Your plan, in order to be effective in the long run, has to be structured in a way which allows independent action while following a bigger master-plan, otherwise its bound to failure since the bigger Orgs will most likely only take advice at what or where to go rather than orders.
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  • chigga
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #3
@Diamondback thanks for the new map. i agree with the importance of the unknown system next to sol. probably the way the vanduul will use to sneak to earth :S

hoped/guessed that this jump point would exist, as this opens up new strategic options e.g. a back door to orion, as you already mentioned.

@Commander Deathcall yes, you're right sadly oppf won't remain a standing force against the vanduul after the assault on orion, exept for maybe a small group, so transforming oppf into an org won't be happening, which in turn makes it impossible to build a standing army, which would make working together way easier.

anyway the people who would be willing to share/rent their ships, despite sc forum threads of people fearing their ships being stolen, should still be listed, so pilots who don't own an appropriate ship will be able to train in their oppf craft. this isn't much, but still with oppf pretty lose structure this should be the best one can do.

@both thanks for the input, and i hope this thread is further used for discussing

  • mediaflare
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #4
Sorry it took me forever to respond, it got a little busy for me.

But I really like to see people expressing their concerns, especially when it shows the player's determination to make this mission a success.

So what I'm going to do for you is take the time to discuss every one of your concerns, one post at a time. Starting with funding:

OPPF is an event designed with fun as the highest priority. To do do, we couldn't force players to follow a strict command and funding rules. Instead, much like you stated with the early Romans, the groups will most likely take care of their own expenses.

However, there are a lot of players and orgs doing their best to coordinate during this operation, and there are a lot of plans on building a war fund beforehand by way of mining and trading.  Granted we can't secure efficient funding until we know there'll be no more server wipes, but know that we do plan on preparing in this manner.

The better example would be the later Romans, known as the Holy Roman Empire. Each territory governed itself, and funded its own military, but when the time ever came, each territory also would pool it's income together to build larger war supplies.

And if you are still concerned, you are more than welcome to help us organize those that are winning!

That's what I have to say about funding, tune in next time for another exciting episode of "mediaflare cares!" Lol. I'll write up my next part in a minute, switching computers, wrote all that on my phone and it's a pain

  • mediaflare
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #5
Now let's talk about training.

As I'm using the example of the Holy Roman Empire, again the training would fall on each individual org, team, or person. Since this is an open event, the staff isn't able to organize and train on the military level.

That being said, we have a lot of brave volunteers with experience who are willing to help train those willing. Nathual has offered his services as an instructor in squad piloting maneuvers, and I vouch for his skills there.

I, personally, am offering an open door to train people on infantry tactics once the FPS module comes out. I'm an Army Infantry veteran, so I'll pass on my knowledge for the boarding parties and ground forces.

Later, as the game develops, I'll offer training in military communication and coordination for those willing. But again, since this is all voluntary, we will still be scattered militia forces, but since this is a goal of fun, that's totally fine!

Also we don't have to fully worry, since most of our forces will be playing all the way through alpha and beta, we'll all be pretty decent pilots by then lol

And I kinda lost my steam lol, so this is where this post ends!

  • TrItOn
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #6
Greetings Gentlemen,
     Thank you Mediaflare and all the others that have responded! I also must comment that these are valid concerns. However, I must suggest there are many organizations *(some are committed to not wasting the effort of our endeavours! Guardians of Orion!) Which will not only have plans and materials committed to securing the outcome! Many of us have not only committed everything to OPPF but, have secured a future for our organizations. Reguardless of the outcome! As Sailor67 has said this is about FUN! Let's do that and do the best we can! Spectre is setting up our organization to make sure that we can have fun and a game to fall back on at final release! We want to make sure that any participating in OPPF have a means to "get back in game". Let's sack some Vanduul!
שם טוב ולא להיבחר מאשר עושר גדול, ואוהב לטובת ולא כסף וזהב. kJV Proverbs 22:1

  • chigga
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #7
@all first of all thanks for the input!

@TrItOn yeah i got some friends who will buy sc as well soon(TM). with them i plan on doing some trading, in order to set them & myself up with better gear (i.e. ships/guns/armor for fps...) and then i plan on raiding vanduul traders and collecting vanduul bounties. since i know them irl ship sharing/coordination won't be a problem and raiding/killing/boarding vanduul shoud provide some insight into their gameplay mechanic. this should be useful before oppf and afterwards, should oppf succeed i plan on staying at the frontline, since vanduul bounties & trading ships won't be flying around uee space

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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #8
another important thing, which has probably been discussed already, more players completing sq42 will influence the sacking of earth

  • TrItOn
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #9
I believe CR said it was part of the game mechanic. "The sacking of Earth." Not an if thing but, a when thing. More people that participate and complete SQ42 will delay the invasion longer. That's part of why i believe OPPF is necessary we are in training! lol
שם טוב ולא להיבחר מאשר עושר גדול, ואוהב לטובת ולא כסף וזהב. kJV Proverbs 22:1

  • chigga
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #10
@up yeah, i know but more time = more prep.
besdies i wonder how the sacking will take place, since something has to be left for terra vs earth civil war.
i hope that during the sacking players will be able to defend escpaing transports with civilians, and lower overall damage to earth by killing lots of vanduul, though a certain amount of damage will still be done. this weakened earth will probably be the point where terra decides to make its move......even more fighting, this time at two fronts -.-' wonder where i'll have the time to do some peaceful trading.......... :D

  • TrItOn
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #11
 :o
"Peaceful trading?!" Apparently you haven't heard of pirates or trade wars?!  ;) This is gonna be real interesting...lol
שם טוב ולא להיבחר מאשר עושר גדול, ואוהב לטובת ולא כסף וזהב. kJV Proverbs 22:1

  • chigga
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #12
By war i meant sth like vanduul-earth/earth-sol war. Teaching pirates or Fellow traders of my peaceful ways through superior firepower doesn't fall into that category  ::)

  • mediaflare
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #13
The big thing I want to address is that we're to early in the game to get anything concrete down, which is why we don't seem as prepared as we should. The most we can do right now is practice flying small ships and discuss scouting plans. Once things start to get released, we can prepare more

  • StefTheStiff
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #14
Hey Chigga. On UEE citizenship and SQ42, yep I'll be running through that and will urge others within my own org to do likewise. Funding will probably become a big issue as time goes on. I'm happy to self fund recon ops and help with fuel/supplies for mfap and sar. With the possibility of players owning manufacturing nodes that could be something oppf advise orgs to look at from the get go, depending of returns it may well be a viable way for orgs to boosting funds internally. Donations of fuel/munitions? I plan on stockpiling munitions as soon as I can. With the lack of crafting it's gonna get expensive so spread the cost as much as possible.

On supplylines Deathcall, maybe the trade and salvage orgs involved can share contact details with some of the more combat orientated groups? Possibly offering reduced escort rates for supplying the OPPF ops area? I reckon the Staff strengths and OPPFs best chance will lie in getting people to interact with others in the same area, as stated it's more of a contact point and brainstorming group than hierarchy of commanders.

Mediaflare, your offer might be a good way for orgs to set up their own training ala the empire model. Drop by as a guest or host some reps from orgs. The best experiences will probably come from helping orgs kick off their own training and seeing what basic skills you think a section/platoon should have, moving and working as a group, best comms practices and whatnot.

  • mediaflare
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #15
As things get rolling, there'll be much more interest in training and the like, I'm sure of that. But it's definitely going to be American revolution style, a majority of rapidly trained guerrilla fighters going against a superior foe

Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #16
Had a concern that came up in the nature of our fleet. Under military doctrine the heaviest class of ship that we currently have is actually one of the lightest types of warships out there: the Destroyer.

By design destroyers are fast and nimble used as scouts, escorts and in the early 20th century as torpedo platforms. If we end up engaging Vanduul forces in strength we will have to heavily rely on bombers to knock out their cruisers, carriers, and dreadnoughts, as the main guns on those are very likely to shred our heaviest ship class.

  • Jack Knife
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #17
We thought of that. Basically over Beta the fleet overall will get bigger better ships and we're hoping we have far more capitol ships in the future. In the meantime we intend a backlines bombing campaign to weaken enemy forces while all of that is happening.

Details here.
https://operationpitchfork.com/forums/index.php?topic=1675.0
Special Forces Wing Structure here.
https://operationpitchfork.com/forums/index.php?topic=1749.0

  • Jatzi
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #18
Btw @Diamondback Tayac is a UEE system. There's no need to go through Xi'an space to get there, there's a large jump point to there from Terra. Did you mean another system?

Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #19
We thought of that. Basically over Beta the fleet overall will get bigger better ships and we're hoping we have far more capitol ships in the future. In the meantime we intend a backlines bombing campaign to weaken enemy forces while all of that is happening.

Yeah, I've been advocating for a Jeune École-like focus for a while in other threads with Jack and Deathcall. I'm to the point where I see our Frigates and Destroyers as how we protect our rear areas while we attack down the Nul/Oberon-Caliban-Orion axis (with the bulk of our small craft), and as fulcrums during the initial advance into Virgil. Once Orion is secured, then we hit Tiber from three directions. But, point being, I believe that the bulk of the heavy lifting will be done by our bombers..
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  • Jack Knife
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #20
Yeah, I've been advocating for a Jeune École-like focus for a while in other threads with Jack and Deathcall. I'm to the point where I see our Frigates and Destroyers as how we protect our rear areas while we attack down the Nul/Oberon-Caliban-Orion axis (with the bulk of our small craft), and as fulcrums during the initial advance into Virgil. Once Orion is secured, then we hit Tiber from three directions. But, point being, I believe that the bulk of the heavy lifting will be done by our bombers..

Considering we have 690 bombers(Counting only variants kitted with torpedoes.) atm and 126 capital ships with a total of 8958 ships this is pretty accurate being roughly 10% of our forces.

Additionally I suspect the Polaris Corvette to be able to fulfill both roles when it is released since it is described as a large PT Boat with excellent ASA battery coverage by Ben Lesnick.
  • Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 12:57:50 AM by Jack Knife

  • Jatzi
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #21
Considering we have 690 bombers(Counting only variants kitted with torpedoes.) atm and 126 capital ships with a total of 8958 ships this is pretty accurate being roughly 10% of our forces.

Additionally I suspect the Polaris Corvette to be able to fulfill both roles when it is released since it is described as a large PT Boat with excellent ASA battery coverage by Ben Lesnick.
That's if the Polaris is ready when OPPF happens. Capital ships require a ton of work and it hasn't even had a concept sale yet. Plus with all the other ships they have to get done, like the Carrack, Orion, 890Jump, etc, I'm skeptical about them getting it done in time. Yeah they can probably reuse a lot of assets from the Connie, Bengal, and Pegasus but I don't know. It's iffy. It'll be great for the Guardians of Orion if we're at all successful during OPPF.

Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #22
I think part of the concern of a Polaris could be mitigated by having NPC's in the non-critical roles, but it comes down to the cost/benefits comparison of a ship that large, and having a Carrier to bring in bulk fighter/bomber squadrons.

  • Jack Knife
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #23
I think part of the concern of a Polaris could be mitigated by having NPC's in the non-critical roles, but it comes down to the cost/benefits comparison of a ship that large, and having a Carrier to bring in bulk fighter/bomber squadrons.

The Polaris is said to be 100-120m long with a crew of 15-20 which is half the size of the Idris in both regards and it lacks a hangar or parasite fighters. It would be easy to have AI crew it by comparison with the Idris.

As for carriers and fighter count. have faaaaaar more fighters then we have ships to carry them and the Beta isn't even live yet,but as stated elsewhere it is fully expected for people to have bigger badder ships by the time OPPF happens.

  • Diamondback
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Re: CONCERNS/IDEAS/STRATEGIES for OPPF
Reply #24
Btw @Diamondback Tayac is a UEE system. There's no need to go through Xi'an space to get there, there's a large jump point to there from Terra. Did you mean another system?
No, just that at that point Tayac didn't look like Impspace. My bet is unless Caliban falls first, that's gonna be the next 'Duul back-door for raiding.
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