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Topic: Recommendations about space station ownership during OPPF (Read 1372 times) previous topic - next topic

Recommendations about space station ownership during OPPF
Hi
Below is the raw dialog of the tiger team discussion about what to do with stations in our area of operation. It is unedited




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    flashback
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    sailor67
    sailor67
    Vila
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    KodyTench
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    Renegade-Shank
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    RunningToken
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    Benjamin_the_Rogue
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    Bah
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    shadowma
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    kaochat
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    Draknah
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    sailor67
    sailor67 August 31
    Hi

    First sorry about the wall of text

    A topic has come up that probably needs a more focused discussion. So you are invited to join in the "tiger team" dialog.
    The topic

    "What are we going to do with or about Stations (Golden Horizon or Vanduul) found before and during the operation"

    Some background for those unfamiliar with our Tiger teams

    When we think a topic may needs a more focused discussion than can be had on the forums, we put together a tiger team to talk about it in detail. Topics can be anything, as an example the last one was a discussion about cosponsoring Citizen Ed's gathering in the San Fransisco Bay area.

    Once a consensus is reached, a post detailing the recommendation is posted here with a link to the entire exchange posted on the pitchfork web site. At that point the rest of our community can comment, give input and basically say yes or no.

    Ground rules are everyone has an equal voice and vote, while we have no formal rule about it is pretty obvious when we have reached a generally accepted agreement. I pretty much stay out of the dialog and only chime in if there is a road block of some kind or to summarize. Make up of the team are members of Pitchfork staff, regular posters, new members, plus anyone with a special interest basically a good cross section of our member base. Team members are welcome to invite anyone they think can contribute to the team.

    Feel free to chime it or not, although I got to say this is going to be one of the more interesting ones, :)

    sailor



    Details on how this got going

    Shank and I were going back and forth a and ended up here:

    From the forums

    Hey guys

    Premium Shank (Sponsor) | Renegade-Shank said:
    [source]

    » show previous quotes
    True enough.

    If Orion does not work out as a Neutral Meeting place though and the game mechanics allow it, we could try to use one of the Horizon Stations as a Neutral Meeting place to help groups resolve differences.

    Potentially. I doubt one would be in Tiber. There could be and probably is one somewhere in Vanduul space or Orion. We would have to set up a tiger team and discuss this in detail. There is a huge potential for internal conflict among our member orgs who are looking beyond pitchfork.

    Problem is two fold. One what to do with one prior to and during the operation and what to do after. I think that is a almost a given that we try to take it if it is in our AO. In other parts of Vanduul space is more ticklish.
    How to disposition it after the operation ends is even more so.

    Yes I think this defiantly a tiger team discussion that we are going to need our pirate forkers input on.

    I will put it together tonight if one of you guys don't beat me to it.




    Bah had a really nice post about it thus volunteered to be a part of the team :)

    From Bah:

    Hum... the timeline does match. The Gold Horizon article mentions that Gold Horizon stations were installed in most human occupied systems during the golden (pun unintended) age of human expansion (named Project Farstar in other lore pieces).

    Therefore, a Gold Horizon space station was probably built/placed in the Orion system when Armitage was created. The question would be whether it was completely destroyed over time or if it's still present in there.

    I'm not sure where exactly the tiger team discussions are taking place, so I'll just give my 0.02 here on the subject and hope it will somehow carry over there.
    I will split this into three different situations: a space station in Orion; an unoccupied space station in a convenient place for OPPF; and a space station occupied by a friendly org (part of OPPF or a sympathizer) in a convenient place for OPPF.

    While OPPF is not a org per se, and thus doesn't have a standing fleet that can enforce the following actions, the idea is that everyone that took part on it would be encouraged in helping to keep everyone else in check

    Orion space station:
    - OPPF will occupy it and use it during the duration of the Operation.
    - If Pitchfork is successful, the space station should be declared a neutral ground: everyone (not only OPPF participants) should be allowed to make temporary use of it, but not claim ownership or take permanent residence. This is somewhat similar to what the MOM pirate base guys are aiming for, except there won't be any discrimination against who enters it. Violence would be strictly forbidden in the place.
    - This might not be a permanent measure, but a rather a temporary one (let's say, for six months) to avoid infighting and bickering right at the victory landmark of OPPF.
    - Think of it as having the same ground rules as OPPF, only lasting a little longer to prevent destroying the operation legacy (assuming there is one).

    Unoccupied space station in a convenient place:
    - OPPF will occupy it and use it during the duration of the Operation.
    - Violence in the stations during OPPF is strictly forbidden.
    - After OPPF ends, the station will be emptied and all participants agree not to try and take them for a 24h quarantine period. This is mostly aimed to prevent people to entrench in those stations during pitchfork, avoiding the fight with the Vanduul in order to be better positioned to fight for these sort of resources/spoils.

    Space stations occupied by friendly orgs or sympathizers:
    - With the org permission, OPPF will make use of the stations.
    - Violence in the stations during OPPF is strictly forbidden.
    - Once OPPF is over, all OPPF participants that are not members of the host org agree to leave the station and not to make a move against these stations during a 24h period. Again, this aims to minimize the chance of people trying to take advantage of an org that committed their resources to OPPF.

    Once again, like everything on OPPF, following and enforcing those rules would be done in a strictly voluntary fashion, but I'm hoping there's a large enough adoption of a similar set of rules to gather a powerful enough retaliation force to deter any in fighting and bickering for spoils and resources.


    Renegade-Shank
    Renegade-Shank August 31
    Orion space station:
    I like Bah's ideas over all, but I would hope for a permanent neutral place not just one for 6 months.

    Unoccupied space station in a convenient place:
    I also don't think we should vacate a station, we should maintain a multi group coalition to maintain peace, not set it up to be fought over.

    Space stations occupied by friendly orgs or sympathizers:
    I don't think we should give the option of waiting 24 hours, it should be a permanent truce, or most orgs will not let anyone know where their stations are, and I would not blame them.
    Draknah
    Draknah August 31
    Set in place a force that insures coexistence is maintained that is represented by volunteers from both Lawful UEE and Ungoverned.
    Appoint by election A captain of that body to serve a specific term and that captain would also be overseer of the base.
    If that Organization should stray from its intended original purpose call to arms both UEE Lawful and Ungoverned coalition AKA the whole of OPPF to resolve the problem.

    Coexistence is the only way,
    or stability to that sector of space will be unachievable due to constant Vanduul threat.
    Anyone introducing instability to this is actually affecting all so should be easy to comprehend.
    Custard
    Custard September 1
    Holding authority of stations indefinitely would be ideal. They could be persisting beacons of Operation Pitchfork, and even a forward operating bases if the success of the Vanduul assault is undecided.

    I also see why Bah suggests timing out. Holding assets and persisting indefinitely after the event could not only get tricky due to the make-up of Pitchfork internally, but in that section of space it could also get very messy. I'm thinking of an embarrassing demise to pirates and villains, or goodness me Vanduul, after such a blaze of glory.

    One question this brings up for me -- which each individual may have their own answer -- but does Operation Pitchfork intend to remain a motivating force into the PU, or disperse into history when the operation is over? The latter would obviously be a key factor in only imposing in a station for a set time.

    Something I didn't see mentioned, there is another option to consider the people who actually fought to take it as the ones to have it. Particularly if one org, or demographic (cough pirates), makes an extra effort to go take one they might be angry and uncooperative to hear that there is other plans for it.
    Andy_H
    Andy_H September 1
    Stations occupied by friendly orgs: We can recommend conditions, but really we should respect whatever it is that the owner stipulates. We would be borrowing their house for a time, so we want to be appreciative guests as much as possible.

    Unoccupied Station/Convenient: It depends on it's location. It is unlikely that it would be vacant, with npc squatters/monsters/whatever waiting inside. So it will have to be taken. No problem there. But it may also be in a location we are not interested in maintaining a presence. However, if we were to want to keep it, we most likely would have to keep others from taking it. Do we want to get bogged down in that? It may distract us from what we really want (Orion), not to mention having to deal with player politics closer to UEE space.

    Unoccupied Orion Station: Yeah. It's ours. Plus we have a vested interest in the system. Since it belongs to everyone who took part, make it a freeport for all. PF is basically Org neutral, so PF should administrate it for as long as we can hold it.

    Now, in the latest lore piece regarding Spider, it is mentioned that sectors are run by various factions struggling for control of different spaces and docks. So it may be that such a station may be a large area that can fit numbers of different nodes that can be controlled. If so, it would mean that many Orgs could establish a stake on the same station. This would make many aspects of this much easier since we could just divide up the station fairly. But as with everything else, details are all wait and see until we find out what can really be done.
    Andy_H
    Andy_H September 1
    Of course this is dealing with actual human politics. About as much my area of expertise as skydiving is for cows ;)
    Draknah
    Draknah September 1
    Politics are not hard if goals are simple and the process is as well.
    It is when hidden agendas attach them selves to the process that things get complicated and that scenario is telling in and of itself.
    Old business
    New business
    motions
    conversation
    vote

    Keep it simple and have the rule set reinforce this

    Yes a Coalition force should be created and the station held permanent to use as a launching point to retake Orion and push further into Vanduul space.
    Once the link is established with the Banu there will be supply lines from two different approaches.
    It will require forces from both Legal UEE and those that are considered outside of UEE law.
    The station and System in its entirety should be Friendly and enforceable to all OPPF

    We are not here just to give the Vanduul a bloody nose and run we are here to retake Orion for all free and Sentient Souls and to finally put a knife to the throat of the Vanduul who are a far worse monster then any of us could ever be.
    Karmasaur
    Karmasaur September 1
    Setting rules:
    If you are going to set rules, you need to be able to enforce them: have the political mandate to act on them, and the physical prowess to execute it.
    Rules like, "violence is forbidden", or "everyone has to evacuate for 24 hours", will never be enforceable with our current, flat power structure. People will challenge us, just for the sake of conflict (troll), if not for the control of the base itself. EVERY rule we put out there, will be challenged.

    A flat power structure:
    As a cross section of every walk of life in the verse, there is no power structure in OPPF. This flatness is what makes us as big as we are. People can do what they otherwise do in the verse AND be part of OPPF. If we alter it, we lose most of our group. But it is a two edged sword. If we have no recognized authority, we can have no means of meeting people who challenge the rules. No rules, means we cant maintain order or keep a station.

    To gain and maintain control:
    If we really want to run a base, we need rules, and a legitimate power structure. Possibly a new org, specific to the task. That org will have to be big enough to keep people in line, and keep pirates and big orgs from stealing the base. I dont think we have that kind of clout, and becoming a real org will cost us a lot of members. If they are expected to recognize authority, many will leave, as it will conflict with whatever else they are doing.

    Conclusion:
    Stations/any kind of base, are going to be the hottest prizes in the game. Controlling one, is a way bigger deal than OPPF. I think even trying, will be our downfall, because it will mean tearing down OPPF and restructuring it.
    I see us having two choices. (I vote for nr 1)
    1- we use the nearest NPC controlled base, as a staging area and C&C.
    2- we sack it up, and become a real org, with a real governing body, and put "base" on the agenda.


    -------------------------
    As a side note, relative to this post, I suggest Sailor expand the hierarchy of OPPF. Flat is fine, to a point. But one man cant run it all. Tiger Teams are already a step in that direction. I suggest either appointments, or elections, that create some staff. Once the next org code drops, there will be forums and discussion rooms to facilitate staff, and issues like the above.
    Custard
    Custard September 1
    When PU is full version then many participants will go their own way, and they will not listen to OPPF policy, don't you think?
    Renegade-Shank
    Renegade-Shank September 1
    The Station goal after OPPF, is not about Pitchfork having power, it is about having a neutral place where anyone can come to try to resolve their differences in a peaceful way, no matter what their background is.

    Another thing that has been talked about is, corps can hire NPC, so depending on how those mechanics work, the Security could be mostly handled by NPC's.

    The station could also become a trade center and the funds from any fees would go toward maintaining the Station and the NPC's needed.

    Depending on how big the station is, individual or friendly groups of orgs. could maintain Embassies there, again this all depends on if there is enough room for this and how the game mechanics work.
    flashback
    flashback September 1
    I personally doubt there will be anything useful in Orion, but if there is I think we should declare it a permanent sanctuary for all Forkers. (Lawful and unlawful alike.)
    Any station we find in UEE space will fall under UEE laws and we could have bounty hunters or even advocacy operatives coming after our shadier brethren.
    If an Org finds and occupies a station and invites us in, we're good. But when the OP is over we will need to police ourselves in regards to leaving the station. I think many will want to try and take control and we'll need to protect the interests of our hosts.

    This brings to mind a question: How will we be able to identify true Forkers in the future? I can see trolls claiming to be vets of the OP just to get inside where they can do damage just for laughs.
    Karmasaur
    Karmasaur September 1
    Flashback, If flagging people as red or green works anything like other games, the station owners will be able to toggle whole orgs as green. In EVE, the general rule was, if its not green, kill it. If someone loses OPPF membership, the station will know it within a second. I cant imagine for a moment that it will be more complicated than that.
    Lyt
    Lyt September 1
    Lots of good ideas and thoughts here.

    If it is in Orion or a relevant system and it's taken as an Operation Pitchfork action then I believe we should try and hold it and use it as a neutral location for all (if that's possible). I think it would make a fine legacy and Pitchfork would be forever remembered as the first player created event to have a lasting impact on the 'verse.

    If a participating Org/group captures one and allows us to use it for the duration of PF then we accept gratefully and vacate once the event is over unless they choose to donate it long term (unlikely but possible).
    shadowma
    shadowma September 1
    Well alot to consider, if the bases are occupied by orgs then by all means we should request use of their
    facilities however if it is just npc's then we take it & use it for the op. As for options for the future
    we need to consider the real & probable reality that the Vanduul will not go away & that a base
    at their doorstep might be handy but definitely will not go ignored for long. I very much like the sound of Kamasaur's
    ideas only I like them both (1 & 2), in other words I think we should sack the npc base & then appoint
    a small body of people to represent each interest. Granted I know that covers alot of ground but I think
    this is the best option as we need all of our diversified people, pirates included to accomplish our goals.
    In conclusion I think their is enough pie to go around & obviously there would have to be rules in regards
    to how much distance from base is considered a safe zone for everyone & this would require the lawful & unlawful
    to respect (in other words no pirates attacking incoming or outgoing ships & transports & no lawful bounty
    hunters looking for pirates & marks). Barring that, this would be a excellent opportunity to make us the
    militia du jour or de facto human defense force on the outskirts of the system. I am quite sure the UEE
    won't mind the help & might even be persuaded to provide some small amount of technical assistance
    or even military hardware, but this is much further down the line. But as Shank & Andy stated the devil
    is in the details.

    Shadowma
    Renegade-Shank
    Renegade-Shank September 1
    I believe that if we attack a NPC station just to take it for ourselves it would go against what OPPF is about at its core, protecting Humanity.

    People would rightly say we mislead them about the aims of the Operation.

    We might be able to workout something with NPC's who are running a station. A NPC run station would mean they would maintain the peace and we could supplement them on defending the station.

    There is also the fact that CIG is trying to create NPCs that are hard to distinguish from players. If they pull it off how will we know?

    Also if it is in UEE space many will not help take a station by force, because they would take a rep hit with the UEE.
    Draknah
    Draknah September 1
    Renegades Idea is good but it is dependent on if it will be an NPC run station.
    The big problem here is that in engaging the Vanduul you cannot take ground just to give it right back because they will not just retake it but they will retake then reinforce.

    Orion is the gateway to the back door to the Banu empire and it is the key to having a foothold into the Vanduul held territory putting the war on an offence posture rather then defensive.

    The advantage here is that this is a multifactional force doing what the UEE military cannot.
    The vanduul will be facing unconventional warfare by seasoned veterans of survival.

    The flag of truce will be the banner of OPPF
    Under this banner we understand we all stand together or fall seperatly
    Any good Pirate captain knows he only serves at the discretion of his crew and that at any moment he could be voted out.
    It is by taking into consideration the greater good of the crew that the captain maintains command.

    Any lawful citizen of the UEE has lost faith that their government can do this job or they would not be in communion with the so called lawless.

    How to maintain order is simple
    It is the same as on any pirate ship
    Maintain the faith
    and to all who betray that faith
    death

    There is no such thing as lawlessness there would be no structure the real question is what law do we follow?
    As far as all other problems, you deal with them as they arise.
    The first question is will we permit structure with a minimum of law in Orion?
    Take a consensus
    The only real purpose of rank at all is for organization but outside of the roles we play no one has any authority.
    Draknah
    Draknah September 1
    One other thought
    Bengal carriers are boring I would much prefere a Vanduul Kingship
    kaochat
    kaochat September 1
    okay so i haven't understand everything, but i got that if there is a station, it woul be best if it is org owned and oppf is invited for the operation, or a npc one that no ne can control ( best would be we kick vanduul so much CIG make the station in the lore as a place free acces for all, but controled by npc)

    one thing i don't know if we had thought about it is, IF there is a station or something in Orion space, it will be derelict meaning a lot of reparation to do will vanduul may constently push on the enginier.

    best option for me is nearest systeme planete/ station


    a bit out subject, but i say will i remember it, we may be able to use Idris and other big ship ( even connie?) as small station for refuelling and ammo ( connecting a starfarer to one side and other ship ot other maybe)

    if that a thing, we should ask org or player who are willing to be a station for repair fuel and ammo to paint they hull with a color code so everyone know what they are here for ( for exemple a yellow idris could be a fuel connection ship)
    shadowma
    shadowma September 1
    Sorry Shank I should have clarified non human npc's or a pirate npc run base, reason being
    pretty sure the pirates don't mind infighting as that is partly how they maintain their ranks.
    But yeah we don't want to go around whacking any lawful good folks, I agree bad pr.

    Shadowma
    sailor67
    sailor67 September 1
    Hey guys I am going to chime it with something to think about. Once the game goes live there could be 10 or more times players translating into a very large number of NPCs. Our relative power will diminish greatly. So while we are extremely strong now that will change post pitchfork possibly a lot.
    Andy_H
    Andy_H September 1
    Lots of good points here.

    Does anyone remember the locations of the other Horizon stations? I think Spider is in Nul, and another in Pyro. Both essentially unlawful. But I don't really remember much about GH stations off hand. I myself doubt we will find one out in Vanduul occupied space, but you never know. A small derelict station perhaps. Either way it is good to have this discussion.

    Custard brings up a good point too. A lot of people will be there for the weekend event and then go their own way. Personally, I think it depends on how much a particular person had invested into PF. There will be many who are looking for an epic weekend and kicking the crap out of the Vanduul (or vice versa, lol) and that's it. On the other hand, a lot of people (admittedly not as many) are also showing that they are willing to put a lot of time and effort into this. We've been typing at the forum here for nearly a year now, and still going strong. With everything we need to do and set up, that is a lot of momentum.

    A part of our goals is to make a lasting impact on the lore, and retake Orion. So the planet itself is also probably relevant to this discussion (bases/nodes and policy beyond PF regarding them). True, many will go their own way once it is done. A lot of the larger Orgs have their own agendas afterward. But if we succeed, Orion will be fairly unique in the UEE. A human world/station not already developed by mega-corps, governments or factions. If we hold it long enough, perhaps we will see something like the Oregon Trail open up. A lot of npc's/smaller orgs looking for a place where they can lay down their own stake, not having the clout that the large corps/orgs have to set something up in the major systems. If we want Orion to be a neutral system free to all, a neutral body will have to fill in the vacuum the Vanduul leave behind. Not necessarily a government per se, but a guiding voice. We are not an org ourselves, but a movement. Made up from people all across the spectrum. Lone Wolves to Mega-Org members. Lawful to unlawful.

    Yes, I am sure that many people will go do their own thing afterwards. Even most of them. But how many of us have reached our destination and said "You know what? Let's keep going and see where the road takes us."
    Bah
    Bah September 1
    Aye, I proposed the timeout and the lack of a permanent presence in most places precisely due to the foreseeable diminishing interest in OPPF. While I believe a core of forkers will always be there to protect its ideals and achievements, I'm somewhat convinced we won't be able to raise a large number of volunteers should we "call the banners" after a reasonable amount of time.
    If some large org (let's say, one with 1-2k members) take over the Orion space station a year and a half after Orion liberation, I'm not sure we would be able to take it back and reclaim it as a neutral ground.

    There's also the matter of OPPF as an organization to be considered: the thread went back to GC precisely because OPPF isn't exactly an org, but rather a player driven event of sorts (though I guess we all agree it has outgrown that to many of us). Once OPPF starts to maintain a regular fleet to control a region of space long after the operation has finished, those lines become rather blurry, and I can foresee a lot of criticism coming our way (and to an extent, they'd be valid).
    kaochat
    kaochat September 1
    personnaly i don't see oppf maintain a fleet afterward, mostly for the reason everyone said above, and because it may be a bit unfun to stay in one place when everyone else will going explore pirating etc.

    *dream mode* maybe CIG will make something for that, or even better in a next screch goal* XD
    KodyTench
    KodyTench September 1
    I would much prefer a captured kingship myself..
    Andy_H
    Andy_H September 1
    I agree with you both, Bah and Kao. I don't think PF should ever become an actual Organization or be a large permanent force. Once the objective is achieved (assuming we don't all get Vanduulized), the movement will eventually become much more of a "We were there" club. But I also think before that happens a foundation *may* be able to be laid. Sort of guiding things in a certain direction, get the ball rolling, and then letting the rest work itself out.

    If large NPC Corps/Player Orgs eventually come in and establish a permanent presence, doesn't that just reinforce Orion's long term security against the Vanduul so we don't have to? If we pull it off and hold it long enough for others to move in, will we not have achieved our in-game objective? If we do well enough, perhaps CIG will flip the system back to Human as a special landmark. Or they could press a button and those left over get splattered across a Vanduul Juggernaut.

    So now that I've completely taken us off course into fantasy land... we were talking about major stations. If we take an Orion station, it should be ours. If all we have on it are overall admin rights and the bar, it can still be our freeport. Even if Orgs operate the rest of the facilities like shops, factories, warehouses and such.

    God, somebody give me a tactical problem. Please!
    Draknah
    Draknah September 1
    A player run story line means this...
    do nothing and the vanduul will do something
    this has been clearly stated.

    everyone's crystal ball is broken
    no one can predict the future or lay plans to cover every potential scenario
    all one can do is the next indicated thing

    there is one law in the universe at this time and it is not to be underestimated -
    the law of survival.
    flashback
    flashback September 1
    Shank already covered what I wanted to say about 'taking over' an NPC base.

    Andy_H said:
    If large NPC Corps/Player Orgs eventually come in and establish a permanent presence, doesn't that just reinforce Orion's long term security against the Vanduul so we don't have to? If we pull it off and hold it long enough for others to move in, will we not have achieved our in-game objective? If we do well enough, perhaps CIG will flip the system back to Human as a special landmark. Or they could press a button and those left over get splattered across a Vanduul Juggernaut.

    You called that fantasy, and maybe it is. But it would be the perfect outcome of OP for me.

    Personally I'll be happy to run the Bloody Fork bar in any semi-civilized spot in the 'Verse. Maybe we could just all pitch in and buy an asteroid base somewhere? ;)
    Renegade-Shank
    Renegade-Shank September 1
    It's not really about maintaining a fleet or OPPF being an org after. It more of trying to have a neutral place for every player and NPC to meet to discuss issues in peace. There would be others that would more than likely want to support this that were not part of OPPF.
    flashback
    flashback September 1
    Damn Shank, Are you in my head?!
    If so, stay there.
    You are saying the things that are in my head but expressing them better than I can. :)
    Draknah
    Draknah September 1
    Only game play will give us the info as to what mechanics/player interaction will be required but yes I think many will be interested in a neutral Orion

    I lean towards the idea that it will need to be player maintained
    we would like to think all will be well but its never that easy
    Custard
    Custard September 2
    Everyone seems to be on the same page about using the space stations, more or less.

    Has there been any consideration of making a shadow organization? Not something to be used in Operation Pitchfork, but for core Forkers to continue under the noble spirit into the full game.
    Lyt
    Lyt September 2
    We have spoken about the Org becoming more of a social thing after the Operation. There's no reason to shut it down
    Draknah
    Draknah September 2
    A shadow Org is a good idea
    Andy_H
    Andy_H September 2
    We still have two Orgs reserved for PF, right? I don't really see us using both afterward for a social function. Custard, could you elaborate more about what you mean? Shadow is pretty vague. Something that is like a cross between "Scourge of the Caribbean" and "Templar Knights" pirating and raiding the Vanduul after PF?
    Custard
    Custard September 2
    Sorry I did not explain much.

    By shadow organization I meant maybe a few things, that it is founded in the shadow of OPPF to continue on some of it, or not really big on recruiting and being loud. Several people said good reasons why OPPF should not turn into a real organization with hierarchy, but the purpose of such a shadow organization would be to have that structure and continuity. We see players that OPPF means a lot to them, it is their primary organization experience. What I'm saying is Operation Pitchfork could result in more than a "we were there" club, it could spawn an organization capable of being dynamic and going long into the game. Continue the fight on Vanduul, join other noble causes, support and hold neutral stations for all, put a team in Murray Cup.. :)

    If that sort of thing would happen then there is the command members of stations captured by OPPF. I only asked because I think it's relevant to the choices of the space stations.
    Lyt
    Lyt September 2
    I really like the idea of PF having a legacy, I just don't really understand why we need another Org for it. No reason we couldn't restructure one of the existing ones after the event.
    sailor67
    sailor67 September 2
    Hey guys,

    I have been trying to keep us focused on the operation and worry about the long term role of pitchfork after we have hopefully crushed Tiber and freed Orion.

    I do have ideas about that which some of our long term members have seen before. I think it would be appropriate to lay those out here with the assumption that we are successful in achieving at least some of our goals and we all have a wildly fun time.

    We close the org to recruiting after the beta ends, and announce that we are planning to make it an annual event on the weekend anniversary of the PU going public. One to two months prior we open the org again to recruiting. The focus is on the shared love of this darn game.

    Note those are just my ideas for it. If the majority of you guys are against it then it won't happen.

    Folding back into the main discussion a second org has been planned for a while. I had ideas it would be a more structured org where rank counts for our folks looking for that gaming experience. During the operation I see it as our fast reaction force and in pre pitchfork operations it would be our structure to capture Vanduul caps cause capturing a king ship is going to require timing and structure.

    So the second org after pitchfork would be a good home for those who want to continue to work together and could remain open. We would need to make sure we are not competing with our members orgs in any way and make sure we are trusted by all sides and maintain neutrality. Think player arbitrators that both sides trust..



    Karmasaur
    Karmasaur September 2
    Without some form of moderation to glean the essence of the conversation, this thread could wander on for ages. If it doesnt irk anyone too much, i would like to assume the role of Secretary, from Roberts Rules of Order, and quickly 'read back the minutes'.

    There seems to be consensus that we do not fight any humans, PC or NPC, for a place to base from. Booking hangar space at an NPC base, seems the most prudent.

    We also agree that post-operation, many would show interest in remaining in the org, or a refined version of it, to create a 'real' org. The purview of which would be social interaction amongst veterans, and potentially control and maintenance of in-game assets such as a base or a bar.

    If anyone vehemently disagrees, please raise your hand.
    Barring that, i make the motion that the current conversation be deemed complete.
    Does anyone second the motion?


    Bah
    Bah September 2
    Indeed, it seems there's a general agreement on most topics, but could we make a summary of the conclusion? That would make things a bit more clear for those that didn't saw the entire discussion, and even help to spot whether we missed something.

    If this can wait until Saturday, I can do that.

    What I meant is a small paragraph describing what has been the consensus in each topic, ie the approach regarding:
    - Orion space station during OPPF (should it exist)
    - Orion space station after OPPF (should it exist)
    - Previously occupied space stations (be it from PCs or NPCs)
    - Previously empty space stations after OPPF (ie, will OPPF abandon it?)
    - Space stations occupied by friendly orgs willing to grant us access to its resources during OPPF
    - OPPF after OPPF (this should probably warrant a discussion of its own. We have shown general interest in the subject, but the specifics haven't been thoroughly discussed).
    kaochat
    kaochat September 2
    i think we are good as you say karmasaur, i second the motion too :3.

    Custard : i love the idea of a racing team:), also got the idea that maybe the org will organize other game event ( if no other event org do that) depending on what ciould be done of course
    sailor67
    sailor67 September 2
    Nicely put Karmasaur, I would add that if a station is in our area of operation (I.e. Vanduul space and Orion) and is in non human control (likely) we try to take and if it makes sense hold it.
    sailor67
    sailor67 September 2
    There is no rush and given the diverse time zones I think Saturday is appropriate. Anyone have other thoughts?
    shadowma
    shadowma September 2
    Custard, thank you for putting so eloquently what I was trying to suggest, & yes Sailor that sounds like a
    good idea. I for one would love to be part of the militia that holds back the Vanduul on a continued basis,
    also agree that a rank structure would be a good idea down the line for continued operations.
    And I also second the motion for Karmasaur as our Secretary. And in closing I will be completely
    honest & upfront with all you folks, I have seen a lot of orgs out there, but this is the one that I want
    too & would like to be associated with in the future. Your sense of Esprit de corps & Camaraderie is second
    to none & quite frankly the finest that I have had the pleasure to be associated with. So hear, hear, yes I don't
    want this to end lol!

    Shadowma

    Renegade-Shank
    Renegade-Shank September 2
    On the nonhuman stations. If they are not hostile, I don't think we should attack them.

    If we do that people will say OP is just as bad as what we say the Vanduuls are because we would be attacking other races to take what we want.
    sailor67
    sailor67 September 2
    Agreed. I made the assumption that any nonhuman stations would be under Vanduul control.
    Andy_H
    Andy_H September 2
    I am in agreement with everything so far. Custard, I hadn't even thought about a PF racing team. That is a pretty good idea. During CIG "Plague Outbreak" events I could also see us running medical supplies as a humanitarian effort as well.

    For our unlawful brothers & sisters, we could look into hijacking Vanduul Transports. But I don't think like a pirate, so I would like to get their take on post-PF activity. Other than having a neutral place to go, what is there for them and what would they be interested in?
    Lyt
    Lyt September 2
    Just got up. Thank you Shank, I don't want to go upsetting the Banu who are the most likely race to have a station in Vacon space.
    shadowma
    shadowma September 2
    I agree Shank but just keep in mind if & when we trade with stations that are in or near Vanduul space
    & we trade anything of worth or tech with military applications we could up end with it being pointed back
    at us. But I agree we don't want to piss everybody & anybody off, but I urge caution with who we trade
    & deal with especially anyone who deals with the Vanduul. The only way this would be a good thing would
    be if we could garner some intel from the other aliens dealing with the Vanduul. Just a thought.

    Shadowma
    Draknah
    Draknah September 2
    On trading, you test the waters and see what happens

    On Roberts rules they are not essential to run a business meeting
    the use of taking consensus at any point will solve any problems

    anything folks agree to refrain from doing here some one else will end up doing so rather then control a matter outright you control the direction things go
    Custard
    Custard September 3
    Draknah brings up a good point, probably my main concern about this issue.

    We can talk like a senate all day, but that's not really going to stop a bunch of aggressive players under the banner of Operation Pitchfork steamrolling non-hostile stations that happen to be in the AO, or for that matter making their own plans for captured stations. I have already seen more than one organization making active plans to take and control stations for a prize and status, and I don't even go looking. The best we get is not claiming authority, but Sailor making the recommendation for others to follow.

    Forgive me for being a giant pessimist when I see this two things, honor system and MMO together. It is true that Operation Pitchfork can get a lot of respect for pointing player masses toward one goal, but I also believe that respect and nobility is not the glue. Glory, and participation in a very large community event will be keeping the morally disinclined in line, and this things disappear when trying to have a space station.

    My point being, I believe our agreements are redundant if there isn't active authority representing the ideals of Operation Pitchfork. A.k.a why I've been bringing up OPPF after OPPF.
Pitchfork Belongs to all of us


Re: Recommendations about space station ownership during OPPF
Reply #1
Renegade-Shank September 3
If an individual Org. takes over a station by force, it will be that Org. that takes the rep hit not all of OPPF.

We can not force individual Organizations to do anything. There will be less than lawful groups helping with OPPF.

That being said, just because someone will do it does not mean OPPF should do it, it compromises what it stands for and would fall apart if it started doing stuff like that.
Draknah
Draknah September 3
The only way to do this is vote as you go.
set an objective and then once reached ask OPPF members simple yes or no questions
"do we keep this station?"
"ok these are the guild lines to station conduct -
Don't kill each other"
"is that acceptable?"

"next"

don't worry too much on the details as there are too many variables to be able to preplan on too complex a level,
you adapt as you go

If there ends up being major regret then revote
Draknah
Draknah September 3
*guide lines
Bah
Bah September 6
After re-reading the entire thing a few times, I'm convinced that I'll have to separate the "summary" in two posts (plus this one):
- The first one about the space stations themselves
- The second one about OPPF organization, governance and a peace corps.
On the first one, consensus has been reached for the most part. On the second one, there's still a lot to discuss, so it will be more of a suggestion that takes into account what has been said here than a summary.

A few notes about the upcoming posts (Ill post them as I finish them):
- The curly braces marks topics that are lacking a definite decision or consensus. I'll try to list after those everything that has been suggested on the topic and my own personal suggestions (if any).
- During the operation, the directives listed here will be enforced in the general voluntary way. Orgs and members that violates those directives will be flagged as enemies, just like someone trying to sabotage the operation would. It is up to those near their positions to take arms and enforce the policies.
- After the operation, a mix of voluntary action and the permanent peace force would enforce these directives. What this permanent peace force means will be dealt with in the second post.
Bah
Bah September 6
Post #1: space stations

1 - Orion space station:
If there's indeed a space station in Orion, OPPF will capture it during the event.
After the event is over, OPPF will keep a permanent presence there, with the following characteristics:
- Just like everything else on OPPF, the space station will be a neutral ground, under a no violence rule.
- The administration of the space station would be handled by OPPF (what exactly this means will be defined on post #2). All decisions and financial transactions would be dealt openly, following the "no mushroom management" guideline.
- An NPC security force will handle the day-to-day security (if that's an option). The income of economic activities inside the station would fund this security force.
- Protection against larger external threats would be handled by the permanent peace force (what exactly this means will be defined on post #2).
- The exact nature of the economic exploration would be defined after CIG presents the options available. My personal preference would be to delegate the production nodes (stores, workshops, etc) to interested third party, using a bidding system, though that's still TBD.


2 - Space stations located outside the Orion System, but in a strategically important location (advanced bases, refueling lines, retreat/gathering point, etc):

2.1 - Space stations owned by friendly orgs:
If the station owners allow, OPPF will make use of those stations, with the following directives:
- "Their house, their rules": Not adhering to the station owners rules will warrant being flagged as an enemy of the OPPF initiative
- Once the operation is over, all OPPF participants that are not members of those orgs will vacate the stations instead of using the opportunity to trying to take them over. They will also refrain from trying to take over the station immediately after the OPPF event. Failing to abide to this will not only flag them as an enemy of OPPF, but also warrant a call of banners to help the previous owners to reclaim their base.
{Definition of what immediately after means}: I'd personally put a 24h embargo on hostile actions.

I'm also adding the following suggestion on this topic:
"No backstabbing": The station owners won't create new rules to take advantage of the situation midway. Failing to abide to this will make the entire org be flagged as an enemy of OPPF.
This aims to prevent a few nasty situations when stations owners try to abuse the "their house, their rules" directive, like stations owners suddenly charging fees after the player has already landed, etc.



2.2 - Space stations owned by NPCs:

2.2.1 - Space stations owned by human NPC factions (regardless of alignment, ie both Lawful and outlaw factions):
The OPPF participants whose reputation permits usage of those bases are free to do so.
OPPF won't try to capture these stations, nor will promote or help initiatives to capture them. However, it won't prevent OPPF participating orgs and individuals from trying to do so, nor will help their current occupants in defending the stations.
In summary: if a OPPF participant org or person want to capture these stations, he is free to do so, but he is on his own and he is not committing those acts under the OPPF "flag".


2.2.2 - Space stations owned by alien factions (non Vanduul: Xi'An, Banu, etc, regardless of alignment):
{TBD}
I suggest the same policy as with human occupied stations: OPPF won't attack them, but won't prevent people from doing so.


2.2.3 - Space stations owned by Vanduul:
OPPF will capture these stations and use it during the operation.
{What happens after the operation?}
There's been a few suggestion on the thread:
- Keep a neutral force (just like the Orion station).
- Those who helped to conquer the station should keep it (no specifics yet on how to handle the eventual infighting when multiple orgs took arms to conquer them).
- Vacate the stations and have some "quarantine time" where no OPPF participant will try to occupy them. After that, people may fight at will over the stations.


2.3 - Empty/derelict space stations:
If there's any place like that, OPPF will occupy it for the duration of the operation.
{What happens after the operation?}
Same as above. A few suggestions:
- Keep a neutral force (just like the Orion station).
- Those who found/helped to repair the station should keep it (no specifics yet on how to handle the eventual infighting when multiple orgs took arms to conquer them).
- Vacate the stations and have some "quarantine time" where no OPPF participant will try to occupy it. After that, people may fight at will over the stations.


PS: this post doesn't really live up to the name summary...
Karmasaur
Karmasaur September 6
We will know a lot more about what we want to do, and what to try for, once the beta opens up so we can get in and look around. Until then, planning is mostly just for the sake of "game theory". Which is fine. Your summary is fine, given the limited information we have access to. Thanks for the hard work.

You made some rules, "no violence, no backstabbing". Enforcing any rules at all will be nigh on to impossible, as Ive pointed out early on in this roundtable. I wont try to stop anyone from making rules, but I guarantee that every time you draw a line in the sand, someone is going to jump it, just because they want to screw with you. The bigger the brewhaw they can make out of it, political stink, faction conflict, flags to the devs, whatever, they will do it. You are asking for trouble when you put a big red button out in the middle of the desk and dare anyone to push it.

Bah
Bah September 6
Post #2: Pitchfork organization and governance.

There's been a lot of talk about OPPF as an org, a permanent multi org fleet and similar in the previous messages. This one is more of a structured (and lengthy) suggestion than a summary.

There should be three different entities (not necessarily orgs) surrounding OPPF:

1 - The OPPF "org"
This is the main OPPF entity, and it should remain what it is right now: a flat organization of individual and orgs with a common goal and ideals.
After the OPPF event, submissions to this org would be closed, and it would serve as a repository of sorts to identify (at least partially) OPPF veterans.

2 - The Orion org (or whatever people decide to call it):
This would be a new org created to harbor those that shares OPPF ideals, or rather have a vested interest in the human presence in Orion (like players who chose Armitage as their home base, should that ever become an option)
This org would serve to harbor those that didn't take part in the original OPPF event, but want to contribute to keeping its presence in Orion and the future discussion on the topic.
The combination of this org and the OPPF one is the ultimate forum for arbitrage on Orion and OPPF related subjects. Ideally, I'd have this to be the single decision forum and have every OPPF org member to also join this one, but I'm not sure this would be feasible.
This main OPPF decision forum would be the only one that can "call the banners", should another initiative like the original OPPF event ever be needed (including for dealing with the peace force described later, should it ever go rogue).


3 - The Permanent peace force:
This one has been mentioned throughout the entire discussion: it is a multi-org, alignment neutral, military force aimed at keeping the achievements of OPPF.
The exact nature of this entity would depend on future org development: perhaps it would be a separate org, or maybe a pact between orgs, or maybe an entity with no game binding.
Regardless, I would propose the following structure and decision-making process for this org:
- The org operates under strict guidelines defined by the main OPPF forum (ie, both the OPPF org and the Orion one).
- The individuals and orgs who commit resources to the fleet (be it UEC, ships, equipment or time as fleet members) gains a number of "votes" on peace force related subjects (like electing officials). The exact "exchange rate" of resources and votes would be defined in a later date.
- The exact organization (like number of squadrons and resource distribution) and decision making process would be defined by the peace force itself (ie, the day to day operation is under their own control).
- Important decisions would escalate to the main OPPF forum (again, both OPPF and the Orion orgs).
- Any individual and org who is a member of the peace force could request audits of the peace force assets to the main OPPF forums if they believe there's foul play from the current administration of the peace force.
- Accusations of violations of OPPF guidelines by the peace force would be handled by the main OPPF forums (example: if there's evidence that the force is exchanging in active Vanduul persecution and genocide deep within Vanduul territory).
- The peace force would be tasked with handling any threats to the Orion integrity, including keeping supply routes Vanduul free, establishing a permanent presence in a few key strategic locations, etc.


To sum it all up, there would be two OPPF "fronts":
- The main OPPF forums, which would encompass both the veterans OPPF member org and the Orion one. This would act like the civil arm of the government in a flat structure, pretty much like the current OPPF org.
- The permanent peace force, which is a structured entity for quick and swift military action against incoming threats.

If anyone has been paying attention (and has been hinted by the Orion org naming), what I'm describing is pretty much a government structure for Orion, having a flat government structure and a military arm to defend itself.
My ultimate goal would be to have Orion as a neutral safe harbor for pretty much anyone (including the Vanduul, should they ever learn how to be civil and repent), kinda like a Spider that doesn't make any distinction between lawless and lawful people.


Side note: the OPPF "shadow org":
A few people have show the desire of having a more structured OPPF experience both during and before the event. From my POV, this should be treated exactly like any other org that is part of OPPF, with no special privileges.
The influence on OPPF related decisions should come from a pure meritocratic system on an individual basis (how much a person contributes to the OPPF cause), which is why I believe the members of this org would thrive in OPPF anyway.
Bah
Bah September 6
Aye, I agree it is speculation, but it's nice to have an overall direction in mind beforehand.

As for the rules and enforcing, I agree that kind of thing will happen anyway (just look at how many Trident clones we had over this short time...), but having official guidelines might be a good thing.

I see them kinda like the "Information security policy" of a company: writing that an employee mustn't write down his own password in a post-it and attach it to his monitor (being subject to administrative measures if he does) won't prevent anyone from doing that, but should the company ever decide to take action against this kind of behaviour, they have a clearly defined basis for doing so.

Those issues the rules aim to solve will happen regardless of whether we create the rules in the first place, but should OPPF decide to take action against those that violates them, no one can say it was unannounced, unfounded or something like that.
Andy_H
Andy_H September 6
Thanks for all that hard work, Bah!
Renegade-Shank
Renegade-Shank September 6
Thanks for all the work Bah.

On the "Vacate the stations and have some "quarantine time", I don't believe those will work. People would just log their characters off on the station and when the time period was up log back on and they are in a fortified position. That is why I believe any OPPF station should remain a neutral station and not thrown up for grabs.
Jonais
Jonais September 6
Well said Bah. Your thoughts are well written and I think very sound. They outline a plan of action for post OPPF operations and, I think, keep the spirit of the event close at hand. Sorry for the delayed input I've been a bit out of the loop for a week or so as things have been busy and hectic at home. I mostly agree with what others have said and agree that vacating stations that were taken by pitchfork is a bad idea and we should try and maintain some sort of neutral force after the operation to hold those stations that we take as an org.
shadowma
shadowma September 6
I concur as well Jonais, that way we could see any future incursions with some level of foreknowledge & that way
anticipate their intent & respond accordingly.

Shadowma
sailor67
sailor67 September 6
Hi

Some quick thoughts and a question or two
First BZ Bah, I know that took some time to write and more time to think about, BTW that goes for the entire team here. Thank you all, time is our only finite resource, and I truly appreciate the time everyone has spent on this

I am with shank on the quarantine time, that is ripe for abuse. As we end the mission our "mandate" will also end. I think it would be a mistake to push it too hard. Credibility is so easily lost, we need to be careful here. What do you guys think of the idea of simply ceding control of stations to the democratic control of our member org who are interested in helping run it with the promise that it will remain neutral?
If 100 orgs have an interest that a station be kept free and neutral, most groups will probably refrain from attacking at least until after the PU goes live, and it keeps us out of the day to day politics except as "elder statesmen" mediating disputes when needed. And if we need to bring a hammer down we have the credibility to make it happen having not been involved in any petty political B/S we all know will happen

There may be stations deep in Vanduul space we may want to raid, but can't hold due to the logistics of supplying it. I would suggest those we abandon but publish the location to our member orgs, if they want to go for it fine, but it would be under their own flag.

The peace force, I like the idea, but I am not sure it is sustainable as a standing force after the game goes live. Going back to our "mandate" it ends when the main op does. I also think that it is something we could get "wrapped around the axle" on and loosing focus on accomplishing the main mission. As of now, we don't know what condition we or the Vanduul will be in when the Beta ends. I see this as a potentially very divisive topic that gets in the way of getting the mission done. I think we will have at least a week or three after the Beta ends and the PU goes live, are guys open to tabling this part till that time when we will know more? Why barrow trouble?

Question, do we attempt attempt to take stations during pre pitchfork operations? The gist of what read says yes, but I would like an affirmation of that assumption.

The second org has long been planned, it has been a question of timing when to stand it up. So far there has not been a need, but I can see it coming probably late this year or early next with the arrival of AC2.0. Its role after PF ends is again one of those topics I think we should table. I see its missions as of now are training, doctrine development, and home for our Spec ops and recon teams. It will also be the instrument we use for Pre Pitchfork operations and our firemen during PF.

Some disclaimers here: the above are suggestions and are my thoughts about the subjects. They are not dictates. They carry no greater weight than anyone here. In all seriousness I mean that.

So if you think I am full of it you better darn well say something :P

The other thing is part of our job is to think ahead and anticipate problems so they can be addressed before they bite us; and I have thought extensively about after Pitchfork and have ideas what that could look like. However if we screw this up they are all pipe dreams, so lets win first then we can talk about it

cheers


Draknah
Draknah September 7
What Bah has is spot on
the bottom line here is freedom that incorporates 2 communities normally separated by geographic boundary's of lawful and unlawful space.

In doing this we cease being just UEE citizens or outlaws but we start to form a new and free democratic nation.
Because the UEE will still exist the play styles will still exist with one rule a wolf does not turn on its own pack.

The idea of going deep into Vanduul space beyond logistical limits is easy.
Use Rommel's tactics of using what you find as you go because Patton teaches us either you are advancing or you are retreating.
Utilize the captured goods as we go and use much hit and run as bait then ambush and also keep moving in such a way as to make prediction hard to do.

Also keeps stashes.

The pirates will be very useful with boarding actions, it is the Vanduul weakness as they are known to be formidable in hand to hand therefore the UEE sticks to long range space engagements but the Vanduul weakness is his size and the 8 foot tall giants will fall.
As it stands the superior weapons of the vanduul ships make taking their ships by boarding a lesser of 2 difficult evils and will work very much to our benefit as we can confuse the enemy by looking like the enemy once we own their vessels

At the moment the cutlass is well built for boarding ships that are not compliant with other ships docking systems and can carry a compliment of marines.

Some will say it is a pirate type action and I say the more the merrier.

Once again I state that this entire action of Operation Pitchfork will be changing much more then just removing an alien invading force it will change how those who have been cast out of the UEE and other citizens regard one another as it brings them together for a common cause and I dare to say perhaps a new free nation.

There will be problems of Corse but you deal with those as they arise and don't worry because we will have the creative ability to adapt faster then any chaos can corrupt a great movement as this but it must keep moving and never get too mired down in overly winded and weighted politics.

In this way the Vanduul are our great benefactor's that they cause such unity.
shadowma
shadowma September 7
I agree with you Sailor why put the cart before the horse so to speak, but just wanted to say I would be interested in some type of ongoing operation if it happens & like you say if it is needed. But I will always defer to your knowledge & skill in the management
of this org, I respect your thoughts & reasoned approach so in short I concur.

Shadowma
Custard
Custard September 7
Sailor said: "Question, do we attempt attempt to take stations during pre pitchfork operations?"

I think see what the scoutings find. :)
Renegade-Shank
Renegade-Shank September 7
Sailor,

I can see some serious issues with ceding control to one Org.

Many Orgs would want control and the one we ceded it to could get negative backlash from the ones who did not get it, which could lead to infighting and the ties that were forged during OP destroyed.

The Org that the station was ceded to could also abuse their position being in charge of the station, and the above would happen in response.

That is why I believe the running of the station should be handled by a group representing ever one, not just one Org.

If we want to table this for now until we have more information, I'm good with that. Although, if someone has something they want to add at anytime during the future they should post it here for review later with the whole of the discussion.

Side thought:

If Organizations have elected positions and it is with the real world person and their character dies final death, their in game beneficiary would receive the position in the will.

Is there a name for a system where the Leadership is passed from generation to generation, but that family can be voted out of office?
kaochat
kaochat September 7
it look like there isn't any good solution for what to do with the station after OP, leave it to bigger org will make lesser org less interesed in helping and like shank said, they will be fight over the station. if leave and free for all there will be fight and try to impose a couvre-feu won't work.

maybe we should make a pole later on like 2-3 month before the event) to ee what other forker and org want.
and just say in general rules that statino will be free of takin for whatever org want it.

I would like a neutral station, but not sure player mindset will make that possible, there will always be someone who want to take it.
Andy_H
Andy_H September 7
I also concur with many of Sailor's points. As to taking stations pre-pitchfork? I'll speak from a Spec Ops point of view about taking forward operating bases.

Small Vanduul stations would be good practice for later on with Recon-In-Force raids and Boarding Teams. We need to experiment, and this would give us an opportunity to gauge a lot of the things we need to figure out. Not only on a tactical level, but a strategic one. If we take a station even just to sack it, this would give us a chance to observe Vanduul counter-responses. We can build up from intel probes, raids, sack & burn and on up to a full seizing. With all the talk of capturing UEE carriers and the response mechanics that have been mentioned, we can expect similar mechanics on the Vanduul side. So spotters can watch jump points and approach paths for responses. How small of a station we could manage to seize temporarily without significant effort to take back a Persistent Asset will need to be investigated. Then we will be able to measure how realistic it would be to hold one for a length of time (This of course presumes taking an enemy station rather than an abandoned one within Vanduul space).

As for holding a base open behind the lines, that really depends on the circumstances on site. One concept that Draknah raised is Can we 'live off the land' so to speak. Keep a station supplied from looting Vanduul transports within the same system. If it is possible, that would simplify UEE based logistics. Then there is keeping it secure up until PF. That could also be a major investment if done too quickly. So would a single org want to do so without support for a base that may very well still be inside enemy territory after PF? So I don't necessarily see us taking anything large enough for the whole fleet's use until into the week before PF or perhaps as the opening phase of PF itself. Much like how Allied paratroopers jumped ahead into France to seize key sites before the rest of the main body hit the Normandy beaches.

However, given that Recon and Spec Ops will be heavily active inside Vanduul space, it may be advantageous to occupy a small asteroid facility or similar construction within Vendetta, Virgil, or Caliban. Perhaps even a wreck site if that is possible. Something considered minor to keep them supplied without running all the way back to UEE space. Nothing that would require any heavy investment, and not much of a loss if we lost it. Again, only time and details can tell us what call we should make. If we spot one, we will probably have a tiger team round up about it.
flashback
flashback September 7
I wonder if it will be possible to build our own station?
Perhaps in Garron or Nul. That would be perfect for a staging area.
Bah
Bah September 7
Indeed, those points might cause some issues, specially since there's already plenty of people betting on OPPF ending in infighting.

I'd suggest we simplify things a bit:

Friendly PC owned stations:
It's the same as any other OPPF asset: if an org allowed you inside their Idris, you're expected to follow their rules. The same goes for stations. If someone attacks it, that's the same as attacking a ship participating in OPPF, subject to the same protocol (was it blue fire? I can't remember).

Vanduul owned station and opposing PC stations (ie, station from orgs who will actively oppose OPPF):
If there's strategic importance, we take it.

Non-Vanduul NPC owned stations and non-participating PC stations (ie, stations belonging to orgs that are neither opposed or part of OPPF):
OPPF won't support any initiative to captures these stations, but won't join their defense if someone does.
If any org, coalition or group of individuals attempt to do so, they're on their own, and the matter will be treated as completely independent from OPPF, as long as the conflict remains localized
This also means that if another OPPF org join in the station defense, they're free to have at it each in the confines of the station. If the conflict spreads, there will be repercussions, and both sides leaderships will be called to put the conflict to a halt or be flaggd as enemies of OPPF.


On all the above, OPPF suggests that any station occupied during OPPF remains a neutral safe port administered by a coalition of orgs after OPPF, though it won't take any action to enforce that.


Orion space station:
OPPF will occupy the station. After the event ends, the station will remain a neutral safe port, where violence is not allowed. The specifics about how exactly this will be handled will be defined later on, as we get a clearer view on how stations will operate, and what mechanisms for co-administration will exist.

As for my second post (peace force, etc), I suggest it be left for later discussion, alongside with the Orion station mechanics. From my POV, one thing will lead to the other.

PS: notice that there's no rule regarding evacuation and quarantine time in the above, nor any mandatory form of organization on assets taken.
Instead OPPF would simply suggest to its occupants to keep those places in the same spirit as OPPF (ie, neutral safe port, co-administered). It is up to every participant not to engage in infighting over the spoils (if any).
sailor67
sailor67 September 7
, snip

there will be repercussions, and both side's leadership will be called to put the conflict to a halt or be flaggd as enemies of OPPF.

How about deleting "or be flagged.."? Looking forward that I may be ( who am I kidding "probably be") the one discussing it with them, I don't want to have my hands tied in our menu of potential response and I would rather not start the dialog from a potentially hostile position.

sailor67
sailor67 September 7
@Flash that question came up early and often, CIG has said pretty consistently that it may happen later but not in year one after release.
Draknah
Draknah September 7
There will always be naysayers.
Ignore them.

This is not a job for naysayers.
shadowma
shadowma September 7
Yes Flash I too have thought about that, maybe the next great starship could be about
Dreadnoughts, we could use hollowed out asteroid. But I am sure that would be too labor
intensive, but would have been cool OPPF answer to the Shield helecarrier. But still think
that finding & salvaging a Bengal carrier & or capturing a King ship should be somewhere in
the plans.

Shadowma
Krytek
Krytek September 7
I do believe and support capturing assets such as these prior to pitchfork, not only for the same reasons as Andy_H put forward but also because of how useful, refuel, rearm, restock, etc, holding assets such as stations will be for achieving our ultimate objective during the operation itself.

I'm happy things to be tabled as tackle them as we go, I do think that having the development of a peace force does give our member orgs an option for game play beyond the operation whether it's part of the force itself or new leads on merchant runs and protection missions.
sailor67
sailor67 September 9
Bah are you OK with my suggested edit?
Custard
Custard September 10
I agree with Bah's latest outline as the standing protocol. This simplified version seems best for now, I see there are topics regarding stations that should be reconsidered or addressed after there is mroe information about them.

My only question is: Is the Orion station the critical point here, and why does it have it's own policy? If there is no Orion station found, but there is another good candidate for the neutral oasis plan, do we not apply the Orion station protocol to it?
Lyt
Lyt September 10
Custard has a good point, if there are landing sites on Orion itself wouldn't we apply "The Orion Protocol" to that? I do like that, it has a nice ring to it, "The Orion Protocol" :)
Draknah
Draknah September 11
The Orion Protocol
optimize the process and get a big red button to activate it.
shadowma
shadowma September 11
Hey sounds cool, coming to theaters soon the Orion Protocol, but I think Sailor, Shank & Lyt speed should get top billing if they make a movie he,he, jkt. But yes I like the sound of it.

Shadowma
Bah
Bah September 11
@sailor67: yes, I agree with your changes.

As to Orion planetside locations, if there are places like that, I agree that the same principles should apply.

It seems we are heading towards consensus. I propose that we wait until Sunday for further notes, suggestions and objections and then write an updated version.
I'm not a native speaker, so if someone could try to write it in proper English, I'm sure we would all be thankful.
Jonais
Jonais September 11
You could have fooled me about the english, Bah. You wrote up those posts very well as far as I'm concerned. I'm not a grammar nazi, but I'm not a fan of lazy typists either. Yours was well written and fully understandable.
sailor67
sailor67 September 11
I agree with Jonais, you are better than I am and I am a native speaker. :)
Draknah
Draknah September 11
Better chance at a Kingship because if we take a Bengal carrier the UEE would see that as a declaration of war.
Abandoned or not, derelict or not What belongs to the UEE Navy is theirs until some salvage company has bought rights and that wont happen unless you have friends in very high places.
flashback
flashback September 11
As I understand it, there may be a couple of Bengals to find and make flyable. Just don't try and bring it back into UEE space as your own. lol
sailor67
sailor67 September 12
I would not expect the Bengals in the beta. CIG is not going to "give" that big a potential advantage to a backer org prior to launch.
Draknah
Draknah September 12
Best we have to go by is Lore and CR liking to put things in a RL way but yes I am thinking that grabbing one of the Bengals would be placed beyond us in fact any knowledge that CIG has of our intentions is going to be leaked to the Vanduul as silly as that might seem.
Bah
Bah September 16
A couple days late, but here's the updated version with the suggestions (plus a few minor fixes, though there's probably quite a few mistakes in there).
By the way, it has a rather informal tone, would it be more appropriate to write them up as proper guidelines or would that only make things more complicated?


Friendly PC owned stations:
Those stations are treated the same as any other OPPF asset: if an org allowed you inside their Idris, you're expected to follow their rules. The same goes for space stations: if someone attacks it, that's the same as attacking a ship participating in OPPF, subject to the Blue Fire protocol to clear out misunderstandings.

Vanduul owned station and opposing PC stations (ie, station from orgs who will actively oppose OPPF):
If there's strategic importance, we take it.

Non-Vanduul NPC owned stations and non-participating PC stations (ie, stations belonging to orgs that are neither opposed or part of OPPF):
OPPF won't support any initiative to captures these stations, but won't join their defense if someone does.
If any org, coalition or group of individuals attempt to do so, they're on their own, and the matter will be treated as completely independent from OPPF, as long as the conflict remains localized
This also means that if another OPPF org join in the station defense, they're free to have at it each other in the confines of the station. If the conflict spreads, there will be repercussions, and both sides leaderships will be called to put the conflict to a halt.


On all the above, OPPF suggests that any station occupied during OPPF remains a neutral safe port administered by a coalition of orgs after OPPF, though it won't take any action to enforce that.


Orion space station and landing zones:
Should the Orion system contain player controllable landing zones or space stations of strategic importance, OPPF will occupy them. After the event ends, those will remain neutral safe heavens, where violence is not allowed. The specifics about how exactly this will be handled will be defined on a later date, once we get a clearer view on how stations will operate, and what mechanisms for co-administration will exist.
Draknah
Draknah September 16
great Bah!
sailor67
sailor67 September 16
BZ Bah, nice job
flashback
flashback September 16
Well said.
shadowma
shadowma September 16
Nice work Bah, well done!

Shadowma
Renegade-Shank
Renegade-Shank September 17
That sounds good.

I think it should remain written informally since OP is civilian, and those who are anti-"the man", are less likely to take offense to it.
Lyt
Lyt September 17
Well done!
Andy_H
Andy_H September 17
BZ, Bah. Well done!
Krytek
Krytek September 18
Great work Bah
Custard
Custard 2:41PM
Bah, will you put your summary up on the Operation Pitchfork website now?

I predicte a next move shall be from CIG, at a later stage of development they are sure to share some work on stations and information about player control. The tiger team could be re-visited, or the topic could continue as an open forum at that time.
sailor67
sailor67 2:48PM
I think we have reached a consensus. Normally we post the recommendation on the PF thread for comment then we go back and post the entire dialog on the pitchfork Web site which is linked in the recommendation post.
Bah
Bah 3:44PM
I'm confused. Should I post it on the OPPF thread or forums?
Pitchfork Belongs to all of us


Re: Recommendations about space station ownership during OPPF
Reply #2
sailor67 5:45PM
OPPF thread please.. I will gather up all the dialog we had here and post it on the Pitchfork Website tonight (on a phone now) so anyone can see how we came up with the recommendation.
Bah
Bah 5:56PM
Done
Pitchfork Belongs to all of us


  • Shank
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Recommendations about space station ownership during OPPF
Reply #3
Is it possible to put the responders names in bold to help break up the conversation?

  • DrathV
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Recommendations about space station ownership during OPPF
Reply #4
Draknah = DrathV ,   just so you know :D

  • Jonais
  • [*][*][*]
  • Enrolled
Re: Recommendations about space station ownership during OPPF
Reply #5
This is the summarized version that Bah wrote up in case anyone is having trouble following the wall of text and just wants to find out the result :)

Friendly PC owned stations:
Those stations are treated the same as any other OPPF asset: if an org allowed you inside their Idris, you're expected to follow their rules. The same goes for space stations: if someone attacks it, that's the same as attacking a ship participating in OPPF, subject to the Blue Fire protocol to clear out misunderstandings.

Vanduul owned station and opposing PC stations (ie, station from orgs who will actively oppose OPPF):
If there's strategic importance, we take it.

Non-Vanduul NPC owned stations and non-participating PC stations (ie, stations belonging to orgs that are neither opposed or part of OPPF):
OPPF won't support any initiative to captures these stations, but won't join their defense if someone does.
If any org, coalition or group of individuals attempt to do so, they're on their own, and the matter will be treated as completely independent from OPPF, as long as the conflict remains localized
This also means that if another OPPF org join in the station defense, they're free to have at it each other in the confines of the station. If the conflict spreads, there will be repercussions, and both sides leaderships will be called to put the conflict to a halt.


On all the above, OPPF suggests that any station occupied during OPPF remains a neutral safe port administered by a coalition of orgs after OPPF, though it won't take any action to enforce that.


Orion space station and landing zones:
Should the Orion system contain player controllable landing zones or space stations of strategic importance, OPPF will occupy them. After the event ends, those will remain neutral safe heavens, where violence is not allowed. The specifics about how exactly this will be handled will be defined on a later date, once we get a clearer view on how stations will operate, and what mechanisms for co-administration will exist.
Tumbleweeds. A Lone Wolves inspired org.
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/TUMBLWEEDS